Australian Politics Forum - Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims?

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims?
Reply #150 - Nov 13^th, 2014 at 5:37pm

Soren wrote on Nov 13^th, 2014 at 5:25pm:

Look, Gandy, you go about your life thinking that Islam has no problems other than what nonMuslims project onto it.

Thats rubbish and after all the time I've been here you should know better by now. I'll refer you to my thread critiquing the way modern islam has in many cases steered towards blind adherence to the hadith and sunna (directly contradicting the message of the Quran) as a starting point.

I do and have speak/spoken up against the errant ways of modern islam - tirelessly.

But this is different to insisting that what I would term as 'errant islam" has transformed the entire muslim world into war-ravaged hell holes. It demonstrably has not - as is illustrated by the fact that almost all the muslim world are not in fact war-ravaged hell-holes. Not prosperous and democratic paradises either, I'll grant you, but thats not what we are talking about. I'm not going to apologise for pointing out how wrong you are on this point, and I most certainly will take great issue with your flawed argument that in doing so I am "going about my life thinking that Islam has no problems".

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims?
Reply #151 - Nov 13^th, 2014 at 8:18pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13^th, 2014 at 5:37pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 13^th, 2014 at 5:25pm:

Look, Gandy, you go about your life thinking that Islam has no problems other than what nonMuslims project onto it.

Thats rubbish and after all the time I've been here you should know better by now. I'll refer you to my thread critiquing the way modern islam has in many cases steered towards blind adherence to the hadith and sunna (directly contradicting the message of the Quran) as a starting point.

I do and have speak/spoken up against the errant ways of modern islam - tirelessly.

But this is different to insisting that what I would term as 'errant islam" has transformed the entire muslim world into war-ravaged hell holes. It demonstrably has not - as is illustrated by the fact that almost all the muslim world are not in fact war-ravaged hell-holes. Not prosperous and democratic paradises either, I'll grant you, but thats not what we are talking about. I'm not going to apologise for pointing out how wrong you are on this point, and I most certainly will take great issue with your flawed argument that in doing so I am "going about my life thinking that Islam has no problems".

All of the Muslim world being a "war-ravaged hell hole" is your own victimological invention.

Where the muslim world does go wrong is due to a variety of reasons, some of it shared by other, nonMuslim societies at the same stage of social and economic stage - but there is an identifiable and evident ISLAMIC dimension to the backwardness and hell-holery of Islamic societies.

That ISLAMIC element has to be owned, faced, discussed, corrected and worked on.
By Muslims.
Always deflecting from it by way of saying that other backward societies are also backward is covering up the uniquely ISLAMIC dimensions of the problem Muslims DO have. And by their having it, those who come into contact with them - in the Middle East, South Asia, the West - also have these problems in their lives.
Islam's problems have become everyone's problems because Muslims have been allowed to migrate everywhere and bring Islam with them. Islam and nonIslamic societies have a problem with living together when Islam is not able to dictate what it stand for and what is means - Submission.
Islam has a real problem with submitting to nonMuslim norms and values. This is why there is trouble everywhere Islam appears.

Islam does not mean 'peaceful coexistence', it means Submission. If you take Islam seriously as a devotee, you are not going to submit bur rather expect submission from all others.

It is a big problem for you and other Muslims. Christianity requires love. That is something in the heart.
Submission is visible, covers every outward sign of behaviour. Islam wants to subjugate - but people do not want to submit to it. A recipe for confrontation - which is what you have everywhere where Islam appears.i

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49811 At my desk.	Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims? Reply #152 - Nov 13^th, 2014 at 9:19pm Quote: I do and have speak/spoken up against the errant ways of modern islam - tirelessly. Either that, or once. But let's not split hairs eh?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 97451

Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims?
Reply #153 - Nov 13^th, 2014 at 10:06pm

Soren wrote on Nov 13^th, 2014 at 8:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 13^th, 2014 at 5:37pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 13^th, 2014 at 5:25pm:

Look, Gandy, you go about your life thinking that Islam has no problems other than what nonMuslims project onto it.

Thats rubbish and after all the time I've been here you should know better by now. I'll refer you to my thread critiquing the way modern islam has in many cases steered towards blind adherence to the hadith and sunna (directly contradicting the message of the Quran) as a starting point.

I do and have speak/spoken up against the errant ways of modern islam - tirelessly.

But this is different to insisting that what I would term as 'errant islam" has transformed the entire muslim world into war-ravaged hell holes. It demonstrably has not - as is illustrated by the fact that almost all the muslim world are not in fact war-ravaged hell-holes. Not prosperous and democratic paradises either, I'll grant you, but thats not what we are talking about. I'm not going to apologise for pointing out how wrong you are on this point, and I most certainly will take great issue with your flawed argument that in doing so I am "going about my life thinking that Islam has no problems".

All of the Muslim world being a "war-ravaged hell hole" is your own victimological invention.

Where the muslim world does go wrong is due to a variety of reasons, some of it shared by other, nonMuslim societies at the same stage of social and economic stage - but there is an identifiable and evident ISLAMIC dimension to the backwardness and hell-holery of Islamic societies.

That ISLAMIC element has to be owned, faced, discussed, corrected and worked on.
By Muslims.
Always deflecting from it by way of saying that other backward societies are also backward is covering up the uniquely ISLAMIC dimensions of the problem Muslims DO have. And by their having it, those who come into contact with them - in the Middle East, South Asia, the West - also have these problems in their lives.
Islam's problems have become everyone's problems because Muslims have been allowed to migrate everywhere and bring Islam with them. Islam and nonIslamic societies have a problem with living together when Islam is not able to dictate what it stand for and what is means - Submission.
Islam has a real problem with submitting to nonMuslim norms and values. This is why there is trouble everywhere Islam appears.

Islam does not mean 'peaceful coexistence', it means Submission. If you take Islam seriously as a devotee, you are not going to submit bur rather expect submission from all others.

It is a big problem for you and other Muslims. Christianity requires love. That is something in the heart.
Submission is visible, covers every outward sign of behaviour. Islam wants to subjugate - but people do not want to submit to it. A recipe for confrontation - which is what you have everywhere where Islam appears.

Old boy post number 3. Good old always, absolutely, never ever.

I like the new twist on submission. Did you use this one ten years ago, old chap? I’ve forgotten. How about Christianity and love?

No, some things change and some stay the same. I never underestimate the old boy tendency for creativity.

The ideas change ever so subtly, even if the arguments are carved in stone.

Back to top

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims?
Reply #154 - Nov 14^th, 2014 at 9:12am

Soren wrote on Nov 13^th, 2014 at 8:18pm:

All of the Muslim world being a "war-ravaged hell hole" is your own victimological invention.

well...

Soren wrote on Nov 13^th, 2014 at 9:56am:

what is it about islam that allows 1% of its adherents to so completetly shape the political and social landscape? What ARE the 99% doing about this takeover by the 1%??

Frankly I see no meaningful difference - especially in the context of the comment that immediately preceded this about muslims killing other muslims.

Either way, the same points I made refute this argument as well.

Soren wrote on Nov 13^th, 2014 at 8:18pm:

Islam does not mean 'peaceful coexistence', it means Submission. If you take Islam seriously as a devotee, you are not going to submit bur rather expect submission from all others.

OK, Soren I know you are smart enough to realise you are misconstruing the meaning of the word 'submission' here. You are making a rhetorical point about how islam is sometimes manifested in the real world, which I'll grant you is not unreasonable. But it is unreasonable to insist that this manifestation is the be-all and end-all of islam, or even that it predominates in the islamic world - it doesn't. And it is particularly unreasonable to segue this into a lecture about the doctrinally driven moral differences between christianity and islam - which takes us back into the tired old "islam will only be good when it takes out islam" domain. Please leave this dead end debate to moses and FD - and all the rest of them. The coversation has to be how muslims civilization can move forward - islamically, not masturbating over Yadda's various "a muslim is a follower of islam" rants. And we start that conversation by abbandoning this wilfully dishonest position that the crazy 1% is somehow dominating the entire muslim world and rapidly taking it over - and acknowledge the significant advancements the non-crazies have made - as muslims.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49811
At my desk.

Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims?
Reply #155 - Nov 14^th, 2014 at 10:14am

Quote:

The coversation has to be how muslims civilization can move forward - islamically, not masturbating over Yadda's various "a muslim is a follower of islam" rants. And we start that conversation by abbandoning this wilfully dishonest position that the crazy 1% is somehow dominating the entire muslim world and rapidly taking it over

You mean ISIS?

Quote:

and acknowledge the significant advancements the non-crazies have made - as muslims

You got me here Gandalf. What do you want me to acknowledge? The prestigious Saudi university uncovering new medical treatments? Or your efforts at reinterpreting Muhammed's command to kill gay people (both the giver and the receiver)?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims?
Reply #156 - Nov 14^th, 2014 at 10:27am

freediver wrote on Nov 14^th, 2014 at 10:14am:

You mean ISIS?

Ah yes - mighty ISIS taking over the muslim world:

note the orange bits denote areas of actual control. Massive innit?

Meanwhile most of the muslim world is either partaking in military attacks against it, or condemning them.

freediver wrote on Nov 14^th, 2014 at 10:14am:

You got me here Gandalf. What do you want me to acknowledge? The prestigious Saudi university uncovering new medical treatments? Or your efforts at reinterpreting Muhammed's command to kill gay people (both the giver and the receiver)?

The thriving democracy and the near complete rejection of islamism in the largest muslim country on earth would be a start.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49811 At my desk.	Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims? Reply #157 - Nov 14^th, 2014 at 10:31am Quote: Meanwhile most of the muslim world is either partaking in military attacks against it, or condemning them. Oh. How is that working out?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims?
Reply #158 - Nov 14^th, 2014 at 10:41am

freediver wrote on Nov 14^th, 2014 at 10:31am:

Oh. How is that working out?

Lets see... more news from that largest muslim country that you pretend doesn't exist:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-16/isis-jakarta/5675550

Quote:

A Jakarta-based terrorism expert says there's been a unified backlash in Indonesia against the extremist group ISIS, which is now branded Islamic State.

Quote:

"There's rejection, absolutely, of both the caliphate of al-Baghdadi, as well as of the tactics used by ISIS in the pursuit of their objectives, particularly executions of other Muslims," Dr Jones told ABC AM.

She says she's surprised by how widespread the condemnation of ISIS has been, ranging from mainstream Muslims to parts of the more extreme Jihadi community.

"We've seen a bigger backlash and a strong backlash against ISIS than anything we've seen in Indonesia over the last ten years. And reaction and the condemnations of ISIS are coming from all quarters."

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 97451	Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims? Reply #159 - Nov 14^th, 2014 at 10:44am polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 14^th, 2014 at 9:12am: OK, Soren I know you are smart enough to realise you are misconstruing the meaning of the word 'submission' here. Shurely shome mishtake.
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49811 At my desk.	Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims? Reply #160 - Nov 14^th, 2014 at 10:45am So ISIS is raping and pillaging their way across Iraq and Syria, with real support from Muslims around the world, including Australia, and the Indonesians are saying bad things about them? That's how it is working out?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims?
Reply #161 - Nov 14^th, 2014 at 10:57am

freediver wrote on Nov 14^th, 2014 at 10:45am:

So ISIS is raping and pillaging their way across Iraq and Syria, with real support from Muslims around the world, including Australia, and the Indonesians are saying bad things about them?

That's how it is working out?

How its "working out" is that iSIS has an estimated force of 30 thousand who have managed to overrun a few dessert towns because they seized control of some heavy weaponry, and have a bit of money because they robbed some banks. Meanwhile there are sh*t-load more muslims fighting and condemning them, which means their manpower remains pitiful, and their area of control extends no further than this tiny strip of dessert.

And thus your attempt to use ISIS as an illustration of the 1% taking over the muslim world is exposed for the joke that it is.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49811
At my desk.

Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims?
Reply #162 - Nov 14^th, 2014 at 11:04am

Quote:

Meanwhile there are sh*t-load more muslims fighting and condemning them, which means their manpower remains pitiful, and their area of control extends no further than this tiny strip of dessert.

So why is it that this pitiful group of men in a tiny strip of desert is able to hold the "sh*tload more" of the good Muslims at bay?

Quote:

And thus your attempt to use ISIS as an illustration of the 1% taking over the muslim world is exposed for the joke that it is.

ISIS is only a tiny minority of the tiny minority. It is wrong to tar the rest of the tiny minority with the same brush.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims? Reply #163 - Nov 14^th, 2014 at 11:16am Soren wrote on Nov 13^th, 2014 at 8:18pm: Christianity requires love. I take it then you're a non-Christian?
Back to top	"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013. "we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions." Freediver, 2007. IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Perhaps this is why the Islamophobes fear Muslims?
Reply #164 - Nov 14^th, 2014 at 11:53am

freediver wrote on Nov 14^th, 2014 at 11:04am:

So why is it that this pitiful group of men in a tiny strip of desert is able to hold the "sh*tload more" of the good Muslims at bay?

Holding them at bay?

A rag tag group of fanatics sieze control of a few dessert towns - by default. A couple of months later, while the response force is still being organised, you ask how they are being "held at bay".

Its about as sensible as asking why, in the few weeks it took for the US and co to push the Iraqis out of Kuwait the Iraqis were able to "hold the US at bay".

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged