This is the culmination of a lengthy effort by Gandalf to pretend that there is no difference between the Muslim and non-Muslim community on the issue of freedom of speech, and that Islam is not against freedom of speech. This has required him to build an elaborate fantasy version of both the Muslim and non-Muslim community.
Karnal actually appears to disagree with Gandalf on this, but is still compelled to come out to bat for him.
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 4
th, 2014 at 3:41pm:
I know what you will counter with - that the antidote against the threats from both is to embrace freedom even more wholeheartedly; that a sort of "free market" political and intellectual environment will sort us all out for the better. I cannot agree with such an idealism, and I am particularly intolerant of it when it is being lectured by someone who is from the dominant, privileged strata of our society. Someone who will never experience real discrimination or prejudice, demanding that the most vulnerable stand up and embrace the idea that they should be mocked and ridiculed for their cultural and ethnic background.
Mainstream Australia is with me on this, and you FD, are on the fringe. Mainstream Australians demonstrably share the muslim communities misgivings about the idea that bigotry and intolerance should be openly acknowledged as a "right" in our society. And you simply cannot isolate the concept of "the right to draw a mere cartoon" from this context. The cartoons were made for offense - they literally had no other purpose, and like it or not, most people have a problem with that. For them the question is not so much "should people have the right to draw them?", its "should they draw them?" (a subtle but important difference), coupled with "why do they draw them?" Which is why consistent majorities across all the western countries - including Australia - were adamant that the cartoons should not have been published. Thats not muslims saying this, this is the whole of society. And you can't simply fob it off by saying "oh thats only because they know how the mussies will react" - since it would ignore some other things we know about our society's attitudes - like the fact that most people think there should be laws in place to protect against mere offense. That would put mainstream Australian society in the "spineless apologist" camp according to you - yet somehow you continue with the fairy tale that its only a muslim "problem" - and that the rest of society is on the same page as you - when clearly they are not.
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 9
th, 2014 at 11:36pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 9
th, 2014 at 6:39pm:
You claimed that the Muslim community is holding hands with, and on the same page as, the rest of our community on the issue of freedom of speech.
And you haven't been able to demonstrate otherwise. Note also, the key word
mainstream.
freediver wrote on Oct 9
th, 2014 at 6:39pm:
The right to depict and mock Muhammed is entirely relevant to that, as is the refusal of the Muslim community to have any debate on the issue or to speak out in defense of that right. If you still think this is irrelevant
And what you continue to refuse to acknowledge, or understand, is that virtually no one is speaking out in defense of that right. Asked about the Muhammad cartoons, and the overwhelming sentiment amongst the mainstream was a deep disgust at them, and a belief that they should not have been published in the first place. Thats what the surveys said across the western world. A grudging acceptance of people's right to make the cartoons (only when asked) came a very poor second to this sentiment.
So, a survey in which Australians overwhelmingly defended the right to publish offensive cartoons, turns into Australians agreeing with the Muslims, merely by declaring which are the important answers.
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 24
th, 2014 at 12:02pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 23
rd, 2014 at 6:51pm:
All it would require is you quoting an Australian Muslim leader supporting the right to depict and mock Muhammed.
You won't find one - the idea is absurd. Religious leaders are universally fuddy-duddy on this point. You've been provided with quotes by christian leaders calling for insults to christianity to be outlawed. You won't find any christian leaders supporting the right to mock Jesus or christianity.
What you cannot deny though is the broad community of Australian muslims being on the same page as the rest of the community vis-a-vis our values and our freedoms. Your non-argument about muslim leaders merely proves that establishment muslim leaders are the same as any other establishment religious leaders - ie they want their religion to be beyond criticism.
freediver wrote on Oct 23
rd, 2014 at 6:51pm:
If this truly is the best example you can find of a Muslim supporting freedom of speech, you prove my case for me.
No, muslims speak out in support of freedom of speech all the time. Most recently against calls for Hizbt Tareer to be banned. That people are hypocritical about what this means doesn't change the fact that it is a defense of freedom of speech.
Gandalf actually gave two examples of Muslims standing up for freedom of speech. In addition to speaking out in defense of terrorists, he cited examples of Muslims criticising violence.
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