Karnal wrote on Nov 18^th, 2014 at 9:54pm:



It goes without saying, that yes, K, you are.


Dictionary;
mendacious = = untruthful.

freediver wrote on Nov 18^th, 2014 at 7:12pm:


Sure it did - that is until you brought up race, which no one else had mentioned. Thats why me and K are now confused.

freediver wrote on Nov 18^th, 2014 at 7:12pm:


I know FD - you've just summed up your complete lack of evidence or any sort of coherent justification for your claim that mainstream muslim Australians are "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" - which is what I've been trying to point out for over 20 pages.

freediver wrote on Nov 18^th, 2014 at 7:12pm:


The only thing to be said is you've spent all this time mistakenly thinking I want to ban criticism and mockery of islam. I don't - most Australians might, but I don't. I made the point a long time ago that I am more liberal than the mainstream on the issue of freedom of speech. I, for example, don't believe "offend" should be part of the Racial Discrimination Act - but a huge majority of Australians do.

freediver wrote on Nov 18^th, 2014 at 7:12pm:


I agree - but thanks for the strawman. Intimidating and vilifying muslims is intimidation and vilification though.

freediver wrote on Nov 18^th, 2014 at 7:12pm:


Then why were you so coy about it then? You spent all that thread ridiculing me for not coming up with enough examples - and now you reveal now that you actually had some more instances in mind yourself? Can you reveal them now? I am most interested in knowing how FD, the great warrior for freedom, thinks our freedoms should be curtailed. Fire away, please.

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2014 at 8:36am:


I wouldn't tolerate the sort of rubbish that you spew regardless of who said it and what the colour of their skin was. Your extremist hysterics are intolerable because they are extremist hysterics - not because it comes from a white guy. You'd also do well to revisit how this point of mine about privilege was raised in the first place, and the particular point of yours I took objection to  - and to desist with this idiotic strawman that this has anything to do with me dictating how you should and shouldn't express yourself. In fact it was actually the other way around.

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2014 at 8:36am:


Your warped version of freedom certainly is a version of oppression. For anyone else, muslim leaders condemning violence and imploring their fellow muslims to respond peacefully to insults to their religion is something to be commended. Not FD though - for you this is actually an indication of how sinister the muslims are, because you can gleefully stand on your moral high horse and say "ahh - but they never said specifically you have the *RIGHT* to insult us... GUILTY!!" - even when we all know full well that no other religious leader would champion that right, nor would we expect them too. Thats what you do FD - you twist the normal, reasonable - even commendable behaviour of normal every day muslims into something that is somehow deeply sinister and suspicious. And the worst thing about it is that it is so obviously behaviour that is no less and no more "anti-freedom" than the every day behaviour of non-muslims. And you must go to such ridiculous lengths to cherry pick only the behaviour of one section of society, and either ignore or spinelessly apologise for the same types of behaviour of the other. You are clearly an extremist on this issue - thats not saying it for the sake of it - its important to keep pointing out to you that your version of freedom is rejected by *BOTH* the muslim and non-muslim community, and you are a hypocrite for pretending you are only out of step with one of them.

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:


No, where you insist that muslims are the enemy of freedom until they stand up (or jump up and down if you like) and insist people must have the right to mock and ridicule their religion - and themselves. Now tell me thats a made up statement - I double dare you.

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:


In just your last post you described it as wanting to ban criticism of islam.

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:


Gosh FD - you wouldn't be subtly implying that peaceful muslim reactions to criticism is basically the same as opposing people's right to criticism would you? Because that would directly contradict what you claimed in the sentence just before.

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:


Ah yes, I nearly forgot, silly me. Exercising your right to peacefully oppose criticism is by default trying to undermine free speech - because they didn't specifically mention people's right to freedom of speech.

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:


So do muslims - like speaking out against the proposed ban on hizbut tahrir. But I know what you mean - we ignore that sort of support. Unfortunately though, no other religious leaders speak out in support of ridiculing their own religion. But we do have a plethora of examples of things like George Pell attempting to get the government to ban mocking christianity. But again, we'll quietly ignore those.

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:


I know FD, and I'll repeat the same thing you just misunderstood - mainstream muslims are no different to mainstream non-muslims in this respect.

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:


You tell me - why *DO* you cherry pick muslim attitudes and behaviour vis-a-vis freedom of speech and pretend its a uniquely muslim thing - when it so demonstrably is not? Is it about race?

From the racism thread:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 19^th, 2014 at 2:12pm:


It's getting much closer, but still not what I actually said. This would be a whole lot simpler if you would just quote these objectional remarks you insist I made.

Quote:


Wanting to ban criticism of Islam is wanting to ban criticism of Islam. Failing to mention or take a stance on freedom of speech is failing to mention or take a stance on freedom of speech. Again, given your obvious comprehension difficulty, this would be a lot simpler if you used quotes. It would be easier for you also, in that you would not have to type it out again, though obviously harder to make whatever case you are attempting to make.

Quote:


No Gandalf, I was trying to say, as clearly and slowly as possible, over and over again, that these are not the same thing. You are the only one trying to equate the two.

Quote:


Gandalf, it was you who attempted to use Muslim leaders failing to mention freedom of speech as an example of them speaking out in support of freedom of speech. I have claimed no default position. Like I said plenty of times before, the range of responses I have seen from Muslims span violent opposition to freedom of speech, opposition through legal channels, calls for bans, through to silence.

Quote:


There you go again Gandalf - citing an example of Muslim leaders not talking about freedom of speech as an example of Muslim leaders speaking out in support of freedom of speech. You still barely know what we are talking about.

Quote:


They speak out in support of the right to do so. This does not mean they support the ridicule of their religion. This far into the debate I should not have to explain such simple concepts. The concept of supporting people's right to say something, even you do not agree with it, is widely understood and supported in the west.

Quote:


You claimed the vast majority of Australians support a ban on criticising or mocking religion. This is the BS that you build on to make this case.

Quote:


I don't. But right now, Muslims are the biggest threat to our freedom of speech, by any measure.

I see. Censoring decent white people again, are we?

Typical.

Karnal wrote on Nov 20^th, 2014 at 8:44am:


Nonsense K - people who mock islam are not thinking about race at all - even when they are the first ones to bring it up.

You can hardly be unrepresentative of the Muslim community, G. You’re a Muslim. You follow the example of your sinister prophet. This makes Muslims paedophiles, mass murderers, and torturers of Jews for their gold.

And okay, you mightn’t have actually done this yet, but you want to. After all, you’re a Muslim, a follower of Islam. Any dalliance with ideas of Freeedom or demokracy is just a cunning ruse, carefully calculated to get decent white people to lower their guard.

Google: Taqiyya.

No, G, you’re completely representative, and if you’re not, FD will make you representative. As a Muslim, you’re the new Abu.

And as an apologist, I’m the new 2007 FD.

There are no small roles, G, only small actors.

All the world’s a stage, no?