Australian Politics Forum - How does Islam improve the world?

freediver

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #15 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:11pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 10:07pm:

Tell us how Islam makes the world better in our time.

It is an article of faith amongst muslims that islam will be a force for good to be sure, but that is not the discussion to be had - and only the extremists on either sides would even attempt it.

All you are doing is creating a strawman.

All you should be concerned about is the issue of people's right to freely adhere to and practice a belief system without fear of discrimination or persecution. Most people will rigorously stand up for this right - despite not sharing in the beliefs they are defending - indeed not even caring what these beliefs and practices are (as long as they don't impinge on other people's rights, of course). And yet here you are seemingly conflating the two - as if your acceptance of a person's right to a belief is somehow contingent upon that belief being plausible (to you).

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good, in addition to whether people have a right to adopt it. It is you who is conflating the two. Insisting we should limit one aspect of the debate is no better than insisting we should limit the other. If the only thing you have in Islam's defense is that you should have the right to believe it is good regardless of the facts, then you have already lost.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: How does Islam improve the world? Reply #16 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:33am Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:11pm: Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 10:07pm: Tell us how Islam makes the world better in our time. I cannot see any value to this cult ........and the death cults which it spawns.
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Yadda

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #17 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 8:45am

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 1:12am:

Yadda wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 12:21am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:49pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:24pm:

islam is the cult that persecutes

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....

People have a right to a belief - without fear of persecution.

Moslems ?

No, they don't gandalf.

Actually they do.

It is a right that is guaranteed by the UN, the Australian constitution and of course, common decency, Yadda.

Your persecution of Muslims does you no justice. None at all. It makes you a disgrace to the very ideals you claim to be protecting. Roll Eyes

Common decency, is it ?

Brian,

QUESTION;

HOW CAN MOSLEMS BE THE RECIPIENTS OF A 'RIGHT', WHICH THEY, MOSLEMS DENY TO OTHERS ?

The essence of the moslem right to exercise his own 'freedom of religion', is that ISLAM makes it lawful for the moslem to violently deny the very same right [i.e. all rights sans ISLAM] to those who do not believe, as moslems believe....

EXAMPLE #1 - MOSLEMS PRACTICE THEIR 'FREEDOM OF RELIGION', BY DENYING [with sanctioned religious violence] THE VERY SAME RIGHT TO THOSE WHO ARE NOT MOSLEMS....

http://thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/gay-man-thrown_sm.jpg

Quote:

While Americans debate the ethics of using enhanced
interrogation techniques on mass murderers, pious
Muslims are casually tossing homosexuals from rooftops.

IMAGE and comment source.....

THE RELIGION OF PEACE

http://thereligionofpeace.com/

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2014/Dec-10/280515-isis-kills-men-a...

EXAMPLE #2 - MOSLEMS PRACTICE THEIR 'FREEDOM OF RELIGION', BY DENYING [with sanctioned religious violence] THE VERY SAME RIGHT TO THOSE WHO ARE NOT MOSLEMS....

Quote:

"This nation [i.e. the moslem nation/community, the ummah] has been and will continue to be a nation of Jihad until Judgement day.

MAKE NO MISTAKE: THE NATION HAS NOT CHANGED ITS THINKING, ITS RELIGION, OR ITS FAITH. [i.e. a moslem, IS, a moslem!!!]

IT HAS BEEN AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE A NATION OF JIHAD UNTIL JUDGEMENT DAY."

Australian Islamist Leaders Incite to Jihad to Expel Jews from Palestine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN6B8WBzbpw

EXAMPLE #3 - MOSLEMS PRACTICE THEIR 'FREEDOM OF RELIGION', BY DENYING [with sanctioned religious violence] THE VERY SAME RIGHT TO THOSE WHO ARE NOT MOSLEMS....

TODAY, 2014....

Quote:

Egypt: Muslim convert to Christianity rots in execution chamber, begins hunger strike

Dec 04, 2014 04:05 pm | Raymond Ibrahim

[Via FrontPage Magazine] According to attorney Karam Ghobrial (“Gabriel”), his client, Bishoy Armia Boulous, a Muslim convert to Christianity, remains illegally incarcerated and has “vowed to starve himself to death,” ....

Google

EXAMPLE #4 - MOSLEMS PRACTICE THEIR 'FREEDOM OF RELIGION', BY DENYING [with sanctioned religious violence] THE VERY SAME RIGHT TO THOSE WHO ARE NOT MOSLEMS....

In the ISLAMIC 'state' [of mind]....

The more things change, the more they remain the same!.....

and from my own archive.....

Quote:

Egypt Rules Christian Convert Must Remain Legally Muslim
Feb. 03 2008
An Egyptian judge ruled this week in an unprecedented case that a Muslim who converted to Christianity cannot legally change his religious status....
.....Muhammad Hegazy, 25, lost his case on Tuesday when Judge Muhammad Husseini of a court in Cairo said according to sharia, or Islamic law, Islam is the final and most complete religion and therefore Muslims already practice full freedom of religion and cannot convert to an older belief (Christianity or Judaism),

.....

The judge didn’t listen to our defense, and we didn’t even have a chance to talk before the court,

said Gamel Eid, head of the Arab Network for Human Rights Information (ANHRI) to U.S. Copts Association.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080203/egypt-rules-christian-convert-must-remain-legally-muslim.htm
an old link, but Kosher article

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+++

Q.
AND HOW DOES ISLAM SANCTION SUCH VIEWS/ATTITUDES, 'RELIGIOUSLY' ?

A.
ALLAH SANCTIONS THIS RELIGIOUS VIOLENCE, AGAINST THOSE WHO REJECT ISLAM;

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

".......And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan."
Koran 4.74-76

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #18 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 8:56am

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 1:12am:

Yadda wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 12:21am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:49pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:24pm:

islam is the cult that persecutes

....
....

People have a right to a belief - without fear of persecution.

Moslems ?

No, they don't gandalf.

Actually they do.

It is a right that is guaranteed by the UN, the Australian constitution and of course, common decency, Yadda.

Your persecution of Muslims does you no justice. None at all. It makes you a disgrace to the very ideals you claim to be protecting. Roll Eyes

Common decency, is it ?

Brian,

QUESTION;

Where is your own human decency ?

When you shamelessly defend the right of the moslem, to exercise religious violence, as an expression of 'religious freedom' ?

[i.e. by defending the right of a moslem, to 'practice' his religion]

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IMAGE...

London

Moslems on London streets, openly demanding their right to exercise their 'freedom of religion',
.....the 'religious' right of the moslem, ...to kill people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

n.b.
Mainstream ISLAM teaches 'the moslem' that is an insult to Allah's perfect religion [and a capital crime], to reject ISLAM.

THOSE PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST IN LONDON READ.....

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"

THE RELIGION OF PEACE

http://thereligionofpeace.com/

AND THOSE VERY SAME 'MONSTERS' ARE HERE TOO, WITHIN AUSTRALIA!

AND THOSE 'MONSTERS' ARE EFFECTIVELY 'SWIMMING' [finding willing refuge] WITHIN THE THE MOSLEM COMMUNITY, HERE IN AUSTRALIA.;

IMAGE...

Sydney, 2012, moslem street protests.

Moslems, religious bigots, 'demonstrating', just how 'peaceful' and tolerant ISLAM and moslems really are - towards those who don't hold with the views of ISLAM and moslems.

Moslems on a Sydney street, openly demanding their right to exercise their 'freedom of religion'.

Demanding the 'religious' right, to kill people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

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« Last Edit: Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:01am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #19 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:07am

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am:

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good

Yes we should - but ideologies are not religions. Debating the value of ideologies that are based on rational and tangible concepts and principles, is worthwhile. Debating the value of religions that are based on not much more than blind faith is an exercise in futility. At the very best you will be engaging in nothing more than a circular argument.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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wally1 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2055 Gender:	Re: How does Islam improve the world? Reply #20 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:16am
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Yadda

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #21 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:34am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am:

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good

Yes we should - but

ideologies are not religions.

Debating the value of ideologies that are based on rational and tangible concepts and principles, is worthwhile.

Debating the value of religions that are based on not much more than blind faith is an exercise in futility.

At the very best you will be engaging in nothing more than a circular argument.

gandalf,

I simply see you trying to sow even more confusion, about the intent, and merit of ISLAM, which is a 'religion' . Tongue

Sure, gandalf, ISLAM, is a religion. Tongue

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But [more than any other religion of man], as a religion [while promoting its 'religious values'], ISLAM intrudes into the politics of the world, and into every area of politics that is practised by man.

e.g.
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

Making ISLAM much more of a political ideology [than a pure religion], in the eyes of many of those who have perused ISLAM's ideology.

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IMAGE...

London

Moslems on London streets, openly demanding their right to exercise their 'freedom of religion',
.....the 'religious' right of the moslem, ...to kill people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe.

n.b.
Mainstream ISLAM teaches 'the moslem' that is an insult to Allah's perfect religion [and a capital crime], to reject ISLAM.

THOSE PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST IN LONDON READ.....

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"

THE RELIGION OF PEACE

http://thereligionofpeace.com/

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #22 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:40am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am:

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good

Yes we should - but ideologies are not religions. Debating the value of ideologies that are based on rational and tangible concepts and principles, is worthwhile. Debating the value of religions that are based on not much more than blind faith is an exercise in futility. At the very best you will be engaging in nothing more than a circular argument.

I disagree, for several reasons. There are a lot of political and military aspects to Islam, and also apparently economic aspects. Furthermore, even the less 'rational' aspects have a strong influence on society. Christianity's emphasis on forgiveness and turning the other cheek, despite being superficially irrational, is a strong force for good, IMO, and is far more tangible than the usual 'be good' type platitudes.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Soren

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #23 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 10:55am

Stratos wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:40pm:

You could argue the case for every religion. I would argue that none have brought anything good, and that anything good that came out of cultures that had such beliefs is not because of them but in spite of them.

Does Islam improve the world? I would say no, same as buddhism, daoism, christianity,

scientology

,

the raelians

sikhism

Well, if no set of ideas have any impact on the world, how is it changing?
Or is there no change in the world over time and no difference between the geographic areas under different belief systems? That is clearly wrong.

Ideas matter more than anything. Religions are about the nature of the world and of people so religions have a huge impact on the society they dominate. Islam has a huge impact on its believers, they obviously see the world differently to non-Muslims and build societies in accordance with their beliefs.
Do those beliefs make for a better society?

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106318 Melbourne Gender:	Re: How does Islam improve the world? Reply #24 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:28am Dear Yadda, can you please make your replies short & punchy. I don't think anyone ever reads all that dribble. forgiven namaste
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Karnal

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #25 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:42am

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:40am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am:

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good

Yes we should - but ideologies are not religions. Debating the value of ideologies that are based on rational and tangible concepts and principles, is worthwhile. Debating the value of religions that are based on not much more than blind faith is an exercise in futility. At the very best you will be engaging in nothing more than a circular argument.

I disagree, for several reasons. There are a lot of political and military aspects to Islam, and also apparently economic aspects. Furthermore, even the less 'rational' aspects have a strong influence on society. Christianity's emphasis on forgiveness and turning the other cheek, despite being superficially irrational, is a strong force for good, IMO, and is far more tangible than the usual 'be good' type platitudes.

It’s only a force for good if you practice it yourself, FD. If your entire pitch is about what others do or don’t do, you’ve missed the point of all those teachings, Christian, Muslim or otherwise.

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Rocketanski Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1335 Gender:	Re: How does Islam improve the world? Reply #26 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:45am One of the reasons Islam has pretty much done nothing good for the world is because it isn't concerned with this world. It's concerned with the afterlife and the world is a stepping stone. That's dangerous and destructive.
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106318 Melbourne Gender:	Re: How does Islam improve the world? Reply #27 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:48am Rocketanski wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:45am: One of the reasons Islam has pretty much done nothing good for the world is because it isn't concerned with this world. It's concerned with the afterlife and the world is a stepping stone. That's dangerous and destructive. Islam is a death cult.
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Brian Ross

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #28 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 3:35pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 8:56am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 1:12am:

Yadda wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 12:21am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:49pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:24pm:

islam is the cult that persecutes

....
....

People have a right to a belief - without fear of persecution.

Moslems ?

No, they don't gandalf.

Actually they do.

It is a right that is guaranteed by the UN, the Australian constitution and of course, common decency, Yadda.

Your persecution of Muslims does you no justice. None at all. It makes you a disgrace to the very ideals you claim to be protecting. Roll Eyes

Common decency, is it ?

Yes. I know you have difficulties grasping such concepts for some strange reason, Yadda. Indeed, one could almost think you were an Islamist agent provocateur.

Quote:

Brian,

QUESTION;

Where is your own human decency ?

Right here, on display in virtually every post, Y. where I defend ordinary, everyday, innocent Muslims whom have committed no crime from your persecution. Where is yours? I see no evidence of it, with your continued persecution of innocent Muslims. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #29 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 3:38pm

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:40am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am:

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good

Yes we should - but ideologies are not religions. Debating the value of ideologies that are based on rational and tangible concepts and principles, is worthwhile. Debating the value of religions that are based on not much more than blind faith is an exercise in futility. At the very best you will be engaging in nothing more than a circular argument.

I disagree, for several reasons. There are a lot of political and military aspects to Islam, and also apparently economic aspects. Furthermore, even the less 'rational' aspects have a strong influence on society. Christianity's emphasis on forgiveness and turning the other cheek, despite being superficially irrational, is a strong force for good, IMO, and is far more tangible than the usual 'be good' type platitudes.

The same could be claimed of any religion, FD. Islam is not unique in that regard. Christianity still controls the thinking of entire societies in Europe and the Americas and dare I even suggest, Australia under Tone Rabbit and his merry cabinet of members of the Religious Right? Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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