Australian Politics Forum - How does Islam improve the world?

freediver

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #45 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 4:25pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:40am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:07am:

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:29am:

Gandalf we can, and should, discuss whether an ideology is a force for good

Yes we should - but ideologies are not religions. Debating the value of ideologies that are based on rational and tangible concepts and principles, is worthwhile. Debating the value of religions that are based on not much more than blind faith is an exercise in futility. At the very best you will be engaging in nothing more than a circular argument.

I disagree, for several reasons. There are a lot of political and military aspects to Islam, and also apparently economic aspects. Furthermore, even the less 'rational' aspects have a strong influence on society. Christianity's emphasis on forgiveness and turning the other cheek, despite being superficially irrational, is a strong force for good, IMO, and is far more tangible than the usual 'be good' type platitudes.

Political islam, or "islamism" is an ideology that is only loosely based on the religion of islam. And yes, that should be critiqued and debated like any other political philosophy or ideology.

Gandalf isn't this just an extreme version of the "impotence equals benign intent" argument? You are basically demanding we start with the assumption that religions have no influence on the society that adopts them. The influence of religion on society is not limited to the "tiny minority," or only to the "political Islamists".

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40764 Gender:	Re: How does Islam improve the world? Reply #46 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:44pm I cannot see one genuine reply as to how islam may be benefitting the world.
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freediver

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #47 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:46pm

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It’s only a force for good if you practice it yourself, FD. If your entire pitch is about what others do or don’t do, you’ve missed the point of all those teachings, Christian, Muslim or otherwise.

Karnal, is this just a more circuitous version of Gandalf's argument that we cannot even discuss whether Islam is a force for good?

Why are the Muslims and apologists trying to hard to insist we cannot even have this discussion?

Quote:

I'm sure Soren was sweating on someone bringing up the Islamic Golden Age and all the scientific discoveries that happened under islam - to which he would pounce with the usual "it happened despite islam, not because of it" - and that the only scholars were jewish and christian etc etc.

If the so called 'golden age' is the best that Islam can produce, it doesn't have much going for it. The Roman empire before it was ahead on many scores.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Adamant

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #48 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 8:34pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 6:18pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 5:53pm:

Did you leave one of "those" countries Gandalf, if so have you noticed the correlation between second generation muslims and terrorism.

...

Should we fear your children when they attain adulthood?

Is this from the same person who is constantly whining about the use of the word "islamophobia" - who insists that his concerns vis-a-vis islam has nothing to do with irrational fear?

This despicable person was born of hard working muslims who left Pakistan for a better life in the UK. Anjem Choudary has insited racial discord since 1998 he is a disgusting individual! His offspring, brought in the islamic faith are just as disguting as there father. https://shariaunveiled.wordpress.com/tag/anjem-choudary/

Good job his daughter loves him...http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/anjem-choudarys-daughter-urges-jihad-229207...

Many of his devout followers are in goal now Gandalf, how about this mother passing on her love of the west whilst living in it? http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/luton-extremist-ruan-khan-jailed-spreading-terror-via-f...

These people live in the West Gandalf but wish to kill. Do have an answer for why that is?

Do you indoctrinate your Children into Islam? ...http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=853_1372324399

Look at what can be achieved if you do. https://www.google.com.au/images?q=tube+bombing+pictures+london+2005&hl=en-AU&gb...

Thats just a small incite into indoctrination gandalf. Do you do IT?

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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 42248	Re: How does Islam improve the world? Reply #49 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:26pm Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:44pm: I cannot see one genuine reply as to how islam may be benefitting the world. It pisses you, Sprint. That means it's worth an awful lot IMO.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: How does Islam improve the world? Reply #50 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 10:16pm Brian Ross wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 9:26pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:44pm: I cannot see one genuine reply as to how islam may be benefitting the world. It pisses you, Sprint. That means it's worth an awful lot IMO. edit [/quote] ta
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Soren

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #51 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:05pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 3:38pm:

Christianity still controls the thinking of entire societies in Europe and the Americas and dare I even suggest, Australia under Tone Rabbit and his merry cabinet of members of the Religious Right? Roll Eyes

You are a dangerous idiot, Brain, because you are a dishonest, lying mong. On purpose.

Your deliberate dishonesty is your settled policy. You lie and distort as a matter of course, you have not been honest and candid in decades. You are a little jihadist on the internetz, a little foot soldier of Allan.

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Karnal

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #52 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:10pm

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:46pm:

Quote:

It’s only a force for good if you practice it yourself, FD. If your entire pitch is about what others do or don’t do, you’ve missed the point of all those teachings, Christian, Muslim or otherwise.

Karnal, is this just a more circuitous version of Gandalf's argument that we cannot even discuss whether Islam is a force for good?

Why are the Muslims and apologists trying to hard to insist we cannot even have this discussion?.

I believe your discussion was on the merits of turning the other cheek. Do you practice this yourself, or is it something you expect of others? Feel free to respond, FD.

Or not.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #53 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:11pm

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:37pm:

You are basically demanding we start with the assumption that religions have no influence on the society that adopts them.

I am "demanding" that we start with the assumption that religion is a personal belief system that is focused inwards, not outwards. As soon as you start talking about beliefs (religiously motivated or not) that seek to impose things on society, we are no longer talking about religion, but ideology.

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 7:46pm:

Gandalf's argument that we cannot even discuss whether Islam is a force for good?

I never said that. I said that it would be a completely futile discussion. But please, be my guest, discuss away about how evil you think one particular personal belief system is - I'm sure it will be most constructive, and achieve lots - right?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #54 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:13pm

Soren wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:05pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 3:38pm:

Christianity still controls the thinking of entire societies in Europe and the Americas and dare I even suggest, Australia under Tone Rabbit and his merry cabinet of members of the Religious Right? Roll Eyes

You are a dangerous idiot, Brain, because you are a dishonest, lying mong. On purpose.

Your deliberate dishonesty is your settled policy. You lie and distort as a matter of course, you have not been honest and candid in decades. You are a little jihadist on the internetz, a little foot soldier of Allan.

Is this an example of the merits of Christian virtue, FD? Or it is the sort of Islamism you were talking about?

Remember, there are no right or wrong answers.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: How does Islam improve the world? Reply #55 - Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:36pm post deleted - full of personal abuse Apologies.
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freediver

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #56 - Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 7:28am

Quote:

I am "demanding" that we start with the assumption that religion is a personal belief system that is focused inwards, not outwards.

Even if you place this limitation on it, which is curious for Islam to say the least, it will still inevitably have an impact on the society that adopts it.

Quote:

As soon as you start talking about beliefs (religiously motivated or not) that seek to impose things

It does not have to do this in order to have a strong influence on society.

Quote:

I never said that. I said that it would be a completely futile discussion.

Many discussions are futile with Muslims. Nonetheless, we should still try.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 96352	Re: How does Islam improve the world? Reply #57 - Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 10:54am Soren wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2015 at 11:36pm: post deleted - full of personal abuse How about this one, FD? Is this the sort of grace and charity Christianity has imparted upon our good society? Feel free to respond at your pleasure.
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Karnal

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #58 - Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 11:05am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:59pm:

Quote:

...........advocated persecution against people ...

against a death cult that murders innocents according to the instruction of its paedophilic leader.

You underestimate how much I detest islam

How about this one, FD? How do such views add to our social fabric and our commonweal?

And how do they fit within a Christian world view?

There are no right or wrong answers, FD. Christianity can be whatever you want it to be.

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Soren

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Re: How does Islam improve the world?
Reply #59 - Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 11:10am

Karnal wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2015 at 11:05am:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2015 at 11:59pm:

Quote:

...........advocated persecution against people ...

against a death cult that murders innocents according to the instruction of its paedophilic leader.

You underestimate how much I detest islam

How about this one, FD? How do such views add to our social fabric and our commonweal?

And how do they fit within a Christian world view?

There are no right or wrong answers, FD. Christianity can be whatever you want it to be.

Are you the milk monitor now, PB?

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