Australian Politics Forum - Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food

Dnarever

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 59253
Here
Gender: male

Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food
Reply #75 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 1:05pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 11:48am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 9:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 3:43pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 2:36pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 1:09pm:

so just to sum up...

DNA rejects the ATOs figures on tax receipts.

I wonder how anyone proves anything to a person who doesn't believe any figures unless he personally agrees with them?

Nothing wrong with the data just how it is interpreted to get the desired results.

so saying 16% of people pay 63% of income tax is wrong??? it is a very simple interpretation. In fact, it isn't even an interpretation at all it is simple reading off a table.

Saying that people who earn $80K are the wealthy is wrong.

People who earn 80K and above pay 63% of the tax means that many middle income earners need to be included to get that number which makes the claim that the wealthy pay all the tax clearly incorrect. Further the fact that many of the truly wealthy end up being defined as among the poor for the purposes of this data further distorts the picture.

The number you quote is the number from the table - what it really means is not much.

its not about 'wealthy', it is saying the top 16% pay 63% of tax and you abject refusal to even accept it.

its not about 'wealthy',

So you have finally conceded that point.

Back to top

IP Logged

Swagman

Gold Member

Offline

Beware of cheap imitations......

Posts: 15095
Illawarra NSW
Gender: male

Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food
Reply #76 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 1:15pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 1:03pm:

Do you think that the lowest paid should pay more tax ?

Yes they should. Everyone should. It's really an easy fix. If all sectors had a small increase it would have to go a long way to alleviating the revenue problems. The rich would still shoulder the lion's share but at least the poor would contribute a smidgeon to their own expenses.

That's the stupidity of politicians.

Back to top

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food
Reply #77 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 2:47pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 1:03pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 11:48am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 9:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 3:43pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 2:36pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 1:09pm:

so just to sum up...

DNA rejects the ATOs figures on tax receipts.

I wonder how anyone proves anything to a person who doesn't believe any figures unless he personally agrees with them?

Nothing wrong with the data just how it is interpreted to get the desired results.

so saying 16% of people pay 63% of income tax is wrong??? it is a very simple interpretation. In fact, it isn't even an interpretation at all it is simple reading off a table.

Saying that people who earn $80K are the wealthy is wrong.

People who earn 80K and above pay 63% of the tax means that many middle income earners need to be included to get that number which makes the claim that the wealthy pay all the tax clearly incorrect. Further the fact that many of the truly wealthy end up being defined as among the poor for the purposes of this data further distorts the picture.

The number you quote is the number from the table - what it really means is not much.

its not about 'wealthy', it is saying the top 16% pay 63% of tax and you abject refusal to even accept it.

I never said that I don't accept it just that it does not mean a lot. It isn't difficult to work out that the people who earn the most will pay the most tax, its not rocket science just look at the tax tables.
The concerning thing about the data is that about 5 Million people earn under $37K. which is around 45%.

The reason that the top 16% pay so big a percentage of tax is because the bottom 45% don't earn enough to pay a very significant amount of tax and yet the big effort by business and government is to restrict the wage growth for the lowest paid. As shown by these numbers the wage moderation at the low end has been a huge success.

45% of employees earn under $37K.

Do you think that the lowest paid should pay more tax ?

the point you sidestep has been the long and entertaining battle in getting you and your fellow perennially ignorant posters to even accept the facts. How do we have a genuine debate on tax issues when you wont even accept the undeniable and irrefutable facts? This all came out of a claim - which you denied - that the rich (defined as the top earners) - don't pay much tax. You still tend to make that claim.

before we can have any real and genuine debate you and the others need to learn to accept actual facts without dispute instead of continually demanding proof for the smallest claim and then denying it once it is given.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food
Reply #78 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 2:48pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 1:05pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 11:48am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 9:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 3:43pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 2:36pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 1:09pm:

so just to sum up...

DNA rejects the ATOs figures on tax receipts.

I wonder how anyone proves anything to a person who doesn't believe any figures unless he personally agrees with them?

Nothing wrong with the data just how it is interpreted to get the desired results.

so saying 16% of people pay 63% of income tax is wrong??? it is a very simple interpretation. In fact, it isn't even an interpretation at all it is simple reading off a table.

Saying that people who earn $80K are the wealthy is wrong.

People who earn 80K and above pay 63% of the tax means that many middle income earners need to be included to get that number which makes the claim that the wealthy pay all the tax clearly incorrect. Further the fact that many of the truly wealthy end up being defined as among the poor for the purposes of this data further distorts the picture.

The number you quote is the number from the table - what it really means is not much.

its not about 'wealthy', it is saying the top 16% pay 63% of tax and you abject refusal to even accept it.

its not about 'wealthy',

So you have finally conceded that point.

its never been about wealthy. You made it that so that you could avoid discussing the topic on point by introducing a subjective definition.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

Bam

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 21905
Gender: male

Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food
Reply #79 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 5:20pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 11:47am:

Bam wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 10:54am:

Swagman wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 8:48pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 8:09pm:

"Tax". Not "Income tax".

The linked table and therefore commentary was obviously all about 'income tax' returns.

There's no denying the 'income tax' data. 45.9% of income earners pay only 3.7% of total income tax.

I'm still waiting on your indirect tax data backing up your counter claims Bam?

http://i.imgur.com/LRqbZI0.png
This is why wealthy conservatives LOVE to talk about increasing the GST. The poor would be hardest hit by any increase to the GST. It is a regressive tax.

and if the y axis was in dollars the result would be the complete opposite.

Funny how you never mention dollars in incomes. The reason why wealthy people pay more tax is because they earn more money - a point that you and Swag NEVER mention, and handwave away when others mention it.

Low income people have much less money to pay taxes with, and yet pay almost as great a percentage of tax as high-income earners, thanks to indirect taxes. Yet if you and Swag had your way, low-income people would be paying 120% of their incomes in tax and you would still be crying, bleed them for MORE! MORE! MOOOOOORE!!!!!

Quote:

great statistic as long as you use it properly - which you do not.

You have no credibility on the use of statistics. If it came to a difference between you and the Australian Bureau of Statistics, the ABS wins. Every time.

Back to top

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

IP Logged

Bam

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 21905
Gender: male

Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food
Reply #80 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 5:29pm

Swagman wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 1:15pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 1:03pm:

Do you think that the lowest paid should pay more tax ?

Yes they should. Everyone should. It's really an easy fix. If all sectors had a small increase it would have to go a long way to alleviating the revenue problems. The rich would still shoulder the lion's share but at least the poor would contribute a smidgeon to their own expenses.

They already do, Swag, and more than a "smidgeon".

Indirect taxes

All taxes

Back to top

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

IP Logged

Bam

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 21905
Gender: male

Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food
Reply #81 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 5:34pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 11:45am:

Bam wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 8:09pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 2:00pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 1:23pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 12:41pm:

Bam wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 12:30pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 10:57am:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/album/forum-attachments/crazxy-carnal_004.jpg

45.9% of income earners pay 3.7% of tax
and then whinge because 'their' services are being cut and the 'rich' are getting a few miserly tax rebates?

Why do you insist on posting lies?

As usual you ignore all indirect taxes, and keep wilfully misrepresenting "income tax" as being the same as "all tax" when you know full well that isn't the case, not by a long shot.

Stop lying.

Lying?

the figures quoted are the ATO's data from actual tax returns.

And that's why it's a lie. You're crapping on about "tax" but totally failing to mention that "tax" includes indirect tax - a lie by omission.

since it was an argument on INCOME TAX and not total tax then you are wrong.

It is you who are wrong, and you should learn to read.

Quote:

45.9% of income earners pay 3.7% of
tax

"Tax". Not "Income tax".

since you want to play the pedantic game, the term 'income' was used in the sentence thus very strongly implying that the tax being referred to was income tax. In fact if he were referring to anything other than income tax basic literacy would demand that he say that.

That's basically an admission that you're wrong. You're now making up rubbish based on not what was said, but what you are pretending he said.

Back to top

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

IP Logged

John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 75137 Gender:	Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food Reply #82 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 8:05pm longweekend58 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 2:48pm: its never been about wealthy no, it was 'the RICH' pay ALL the tax
Back to top	Our esteemed leader: I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus. IP Logged

John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 75137 Gender:	Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food Reply #83 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 8:07pm longweekend58 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 11:45am: the term 'income' was used in the sentence thus very strongly implying that the tax being referred to was income tax
Back to top	Our esteemed leader: I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus. IP Logged

John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 75137 Gender:	Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food Reply #84 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 8:08pm Swagman wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 1:15pm: Dnarever wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 1:03pm: Do you think that the lowest paid should pay more tax ? Yes they should. That's the stupidity of politicians. they can't ... they have no extra money to pay in taxes
Back to top	Our esteemed leader: I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus. IP Logged

Dnarever

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 59253
Here
Gender: male

Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food
Reply #85 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 9:17pm

Swagman wrote on Jan 8^th, 2015 at 10:57am:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/album/forum-attachments/crazxy-carnal_004.jpg

45.9% of income earners pay 3.7% of tax
and then whinge because 'their' services are being cut and the 'rich' are getting a few miserly tax rebates?

They whinge about wealth fare, they whinge about private schools and then whinge about private health insurance rebates? They whinge about CO2 emissions and Hospital beds, and level crossings and paramedics etc etc etc til the cows come home....

How dare the Govt that us 45.9% of income earners that only pay 3.7% of the cost for spend the 96.3% of other people's taxes on anything but them?

They call the so-called rich selfish?

That 45.9% of people number about 5.8 Million people and they all earn less than $37,000 per year.

The problem that you have is that you can not get blood out of a stone.

Back to top

IP Logged

Dnarever

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 59253
Here
Gender: male

Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food
Reply #86 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 9:25pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 8:08pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 1:15pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 1:03pm:

Do you think that the lowest paid should pay more tax ?

Yes they should. That's the stupidity of politicians.

they can't ... they have no extra money to pay in taxes

The interesting thing that the table does not show is that high earners also pay tax at the same rate on what they earn below $37,000. that means that an increase at this level will impact higher wage earners the same as low income earners.

Also not shown in the calculation is the total amount collected in each band of taxation.

By that I mean that for people on high wages the tax paid in the lower bands are excluded from the calculation in those more relevant bands.

Meaning that much more is collected in the lower bands than what is shown and the tax collected in the lower band is then added to the higher band for higher earners even though that is not where it was collected it seems.

It is likely that the lower and mid bands actually collect more tax dollars.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jan 9^th, 2015 at 9:32pm by Dnarever »

IP Logged

Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59253 Here Gender:	Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food Reply #87 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 9:29pm Quote: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food How about we don't go playing with the thin edge of that there wedge at all.
Back to top	IP Logged

John Smith

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 75137
Gender: male

Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food
Reply #88 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 9:31pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 9:25pm:

The interesting thing that the table does not show is that high earners also pay tax at the same rate on what they earn below $37,000.

the other thing is that that table would show Gina as earning $150 000 ... it doesn't count any of the 'income' from the companies she controls. How many of Ginas cars, boats or planes do you think are in her name? Cheesy

Back to top

Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

IP Logged

Swagman

Gold Member

Offline

Beware of cheap imitations......

Posts: 15095
Illawarra NSW
Gender: male

Re: Put GST On Private Health Insurance Not Fresh Food
Reply #89 - Jan 10^th, 2015 at 1:16pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 8:08pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 1:15pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 1:03pm:

Do you think that the lowest paid should pay more tax ?

Yes they should. That's the stupidity of politicians.

they can't ... they have no extra money to pay in taxes

The lowest paid don't pay any income tax anyway Smithy.

If the GST was increased to 15% and the income tax threshold increased to compensate there'd be effall impact on the lowest paid other than getting increased benefits and services as a result of greater revenues to Govt.

Regressive taxes are not the evil boogieman that Lefty spinners crap on about Huh

Back to top

IP Logged