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France terror attack is justified by Islam (Read 17791 times)
Soren
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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #90 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 6:37pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2015 at 6:07pm:
The cartoons I have seen do not look racist to me, any more than a comical depiction of Jesus is racist. People are becoming genuinely afraid to publish this sort of thing, so it is necessary to actually publish it, to show your solidarity in more than a limp wristed, tokenistic gesture, and to drive home the point to the nutjobs that these sorts of attacks backfire.


To re-phrase Voltaire: Ridiculiser l'infâme!!




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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #91 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 6:41pm
 
So FD, if I say I condemn the cartoons as racist and bigoted and I would non-violently oppose anyone publishing them or republishing them - but accept their right to publish them and condemn violent reactions to them...

- would that compatible with freedom?

Or do I have to insist that these cartoons be shoved in muslim's faces before it becomes a "proper" gesture of solidarity and support for freedom?
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #92 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 6:48pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 9th, 2015 at 6:41pm:
So FD, if I say I condemn the cartoons as racist and bigoted and I would non-violently oppose anyone publishing them or republishing them - but accept their right to publish them and condemn violent reactions to them...

- would that compatible with freedom?

Or do I have to insist that these cartoons be shoved in muslim's faces before it becomes a "proper" gesture of solidarity and support for freedom?

Islam must be sent the way of Christianity - a free association of like-minded souls with no ability to dictate anything. 

Religion is not dictatorship. Islam still wants to dictate. It must be stopped from such aspirations.
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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #93 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 6:53pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2015 at 6:07pm:
The cartoons I have seen do not look racist to me, any more than a comical depiction of Jesus is racist. People are becoming genuinely afraid to publish this sort of thing, so it is necessary to actually publish it, to show your solidarity in more than a limp wristed, tokenistic gesture, and to drive home the point to the nutjobs that these sorts of attacks backfire.


Tell me, FD, how would you draw a Jew?  Hook nose?  Swarthy complexion?  Have a Star of David on their clothing, just to make sure you knew what you were looking at?   Is such a depiction of a Jew anti-Semitic?

Is drawing Muslims as being stereotypically Arab, with again a hook nose, a turban, with a crescent on their clothing, Islamophobic? 

So, you don't think the SMH should have apologised over it's cartoon portraying an Israeli in such a way?

Is it possible to be too offensive?   I'm genuinely interested if there is anything you find beyond the pale, at all?   How about depictions of paedophilia?  Bestiality?  Sadism?   Anything at all?   Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #94 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 7:37pm
 
Hope this does it justice.

...

In solidarity with the victims from Charlie Hebdo (Charlie Weekly) magazine, and all people whose freedom of expression is under attack by ideologies of violent intolerance. The front cover depicted (above left) is from a 2011 edition, guest edited by Muhammed, aka Charia Hebdo. He promises "100 lashes if you don't die of laughter". After that issue was published, the magazine's office was firebombed and its website was hacked. The attackers posted a notice on the hacked site that read, "You keep abusing Islam's almighty Prophet with disgusting and disgraceful cartoons using excuses of freedom of speech. Be God's curse upon you!" The artist, 'Luz' escaped Wednesday's slaughter because he was late for work. Ten of his colleagues and two police officers were murdered.

Freedom of speech - use it or lose it.

www.ozpolitic.com/charlie-hebdo.jpg
www.charliehebdo.fr
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Brian Ross
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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #95 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 7:44pm
 
So, you see nothing wrong I take it with cartoonists deliberately utilising racist stereotypes in their cartoons?

So, you were against the SMH apologising for this cartoon, FD?

...
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #96 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 7:50pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 9th, 2015 at 6:41pm:
So FD, if I say I condemn the cartoons as racist and bigoted and I would non-violently oppose anyone publishing them or republishing them - but accept their right to publish them and condemn violent reactions to them...

- would that compatible with freedom?

Or do I have to insist that these cartoons be shoved in muslim's faces before it becomes a "proper" gesture of solidarity and support for freedom?


Actually, how are they racist and bigoted? Why, exactly, shouldn’t they be published? Why would this be opposed?

Now I’m really curious.
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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #97 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 7:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 9th, 2015 at 6:07pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 9th, 2015 at 9:40am:
freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2015 at 8:09pm:
I am going to dig up some of those cartoons and post them. The 'good' it does is defending freedom of speech.


Quote:
We can defend Charlie Hebdo without endorsing it
By Jeff Sparrow
Updated about an hour agoFri 9 Jan 2015, 6:28am

We should condemn the Paris killers, but that doesn't mean we must circulate the work of Charlie Hebdo. You can uphold their right to safety without endorsing the racialised stereotypes they published, writes Jeff Sparrow.

No one should be killed for drawing a cartoon. Nor for writing an article, or for editing or publishing one.

It doesn't matter whether you live in Paris or Sydney, New York or Baghdad - expressing an opinion shouldn't be a death sentence.

That's all that needs to be said about free speech and the awful murders in France.

Or at least it should be.

But in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo massacre, it's being argued that, rather than merely condemning the killers, we should, in the name of free speech, republish the magazine's work.

And that's something quite different.

Last July, the Sydney Morning Herald published a cartoon by Glen Le Lievre about the conflict in Palestine. The image showed an elderly man sitting on an armchair using a remote control device to explode bombs in Gaza. The figure, with an exaggeratedly large nose, was wearing a skullcap; his chair was decorated with the Star of David.

Fairfax (correctly, in my view) subsequently apologised for the cartoon: the tropes were, the paper said, uncomfortably close to classical anti-Semitism:

The Herald now appreciates that, in using the Star of David and the kippah in the cartoon, the newspaper invoked an inappropriate element of religion, rather than nationhood, and made a serious error of judgment.
It was wrong to publish the cartoon in its original form.
Had someone subsequently attacked the artist, would that have changed our opinion of the image in question? Would it have been necessary to endorse - or even republish - an anti-Jewish cartoon to defend its creator from harm?

To put it another way, you don't have to like the project of Charlie Hedbo to defend its artists from murder, just as you can uphold media workers' right to safety without endorsing the imagery they produce.

That might seem entirely obvious. But it needs to be said for, if the SMH cartoon was bigoted, so too was much of what Charlie Hebdo published.

Jacob Canfield offers a sample of the magazine's work. Have a look for yourself. It's a gallery of racialised stereotypes: image after image of leering hook-nosed Muslims, with bushy beards and hijabs.

As Canfield says:

These are, by even the most generous assessment, incredibly racist cartoons. Hebdo's goal is to provoke, and these cartoons make it very clear who the white editorial staff was interested in provoking: France's incredibly marginalized, often attacked, Muslim immigrant community.
Once more and again, we can condemn those who kill artists for their art without pretending there's something admirable in xenophobic clichés, particularly given the rising racial tensions across Europe.

Earlier this week, 18,000 people marched in Dresden under the banner of PEGIDA - or Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamization of the West - demanding a harsh crackdown on immigrants. The group's been dubbed "the pinstripe Nazis", in a country that doesn't use references to National Socialism lightly.

Similar groups are on the rise all across the continent, including in France, where the National Front has reached new levels of popularity, despite a lineage traceable back to old-style Jew-baiting fascism.

Already, the far Right is making political capital from this crime. The circulation of Islamophobic images, even if intended as a gesture of solidarity with the victims, will help normalise a bigotry that's the bread and butter of the National Front and its ilk.

Many of us remember the immediate aftermath of 9/11, when politicians and media pundits stampeded each other into a whole gamut of responses, almost all of which proved to be disastrous.

So right now would be a good time to calm down, to refrain from hashtag politics and kneejerk reactions. What's happened is bad enough. Let's not make matters worse.

Jeff Sparrow is the editor of Overland literary journal and the author of Killing: Misadventures in Violence. On Twitter, he is @Jeff_Sparrow. View his full profile here.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-09/sparrow-we-should-support-charlie-hebdo-no...


The cartoons I have seen do not look racist to me, any more than a comical depiction of Jesus is racist. People are becoming genuinely afraid to publish this sort of thing, so it is necessary to actually publish it, to show your solidarity in more than a limp wristed, tokenistic gesture, and to drive home the point to the nutjobs that these sorts of attacks backfire.


Me either, but there’s no way I’d publish, reproduce or post krap work merely to make a point about Freeeedom.

We used to sh!t in people’s front yards when we were kids, but we never pretended we were making a point about the freedom to sh!t.

The old boy’s Jesus and Moh cartoons fit perfectly in the sh!t and run category.
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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #98 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 8:00pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jan 9th, 2015 at 7:44pm:
So, you see nothing wrong I take it with cartoonists deliberately utilising racist stereotypes in their cartoons?

So, you were against the SMH apologising for this cartoon, FD?

http://honestreporting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Sydney-Morning-Herald.jpg


What’s wrong with this?
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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #99 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 8:11pm
 
Quote:
Actually, how are they racist and bigoted? Why, exactly, shouldn’t they be published? Why would this be opposed?

Now I’m really curious.


the reasons are not important - I'm asking if such sentiments would be compatible in FD's   world. Is he really saying the only way to defend free speech against such attacks is to keep publishing the offending material? Is it possible for a member of a free society to freely express their view that a drawing is offensive and it should not be published - but at the same time accept people's right to publish it?

I'm genuinely curious - as FD appears to be saying that you can't oppose both the cartoons and the terrorists at the same time if you support freedom speech.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #100 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 8:31pm
 
But what’s actually wrong with the cartoons? That’s what FD, and now my humble self, are curious about.
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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #101 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 8:57pm
 
The reasons are very important. I would never say someone should not publish something if I believed they had a right to.publish it.

The old boy’s Jesus and Moh cartoons are mindnumbingly boring. No one would publish them in a print publication, they’re just dumb.

I haven’t seen all the Charlie cartoons,  but the Moh and the hundred lashes cover is just clean fun. There is nothing offensive about it - to me.

If Muslims have an issue with non-Muslims publishing the image of Mohammed alone, that’s their problem. We know the reasons for the ban on Muhammed’s image, and modern.satire has nothing to do with them. Besides, satire is about making fun of such taboos. That’s the very point of satire. People can still be religious and amused - or religious and at least tolerant of others’ amusement.

I’d say such amusement is a necessary part of religion, but that’s just me. If you can’t laugh, you’re a zealot, and an enemy of spirituality, a kuffir.

I’m not sure if the image of Muhammed is where you’re heading, but I agree with you on publishing images purely to offend. This is not satire. As far as I can see, however, Charlie are having an important social chuckle, and to a devout PB, this is sacrosanct. For we PBs, rule-driven bores, zealots and old boys come second in the pecking order of freeedoms. They’re the underclass, and should be censored - or preferably neutered.

Images of Moh, hook-nosed Jews, and all sorts of racial or religious cliches can make important points about how we live and how we see the world. I grew up with Mad comics. Personally, I can’t think of anything that should not be the subject to caracaturization, I honestly can’t.

I know people like Y, FD and the old boy will disagree, but I’m curious. Do you?
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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #102 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 9:04pm
 
I can't answer that K because I don't know French - and the only ones I've seen are in French. It would also depend on the context in which they were used. Some may be making a legitimate point about islamic atrocities, but others are simply gratuitous.

Suffice to say though that muslims seem to find them offensive. You don't have to share their offense, or even understand their offense. Thats the beauty of a free society - you are free to be offended or not be offended, and it doesn't have to make sense to other people. You are also free to express the view that they are so offensive they should not be published - just as you are free to say people are full of shlt for being offended and that the only way to protect free speech in the face of violence is to shove even more offending cartoons in muslim's faces.

I happen to believe that all the above sentiments are perfectly consistent with someone who staunchly believes in free speech. My sense though is that FD has some difficulty agreeing with this. He seems to think that employing some circumspection and saying "maybe being arseholes and publishing gratuitous cartoons for the sole purpose of offending isn't such a good idea" is being limp-wristed and giving in to the terrorists. But I would like to clarify that point with him.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #103 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 9:13pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 9th, 2015 at 8:11pm:
Quote:
Actually, how are they racist and bigoted? Why, exactly, shouldn’t they be published? Why would this be opposed?

Now I’m really curious.


the reasons are not important - I'm asking if such sentiments would be compatible in FD's   world. Is he really saying the only way to defend free speech against such attacks is to keep publishing the offending material? Is it possible for a member of a free society to freely express their view that a drawing is offensive and it should not be published - but at the same time accept people's right to publish it?

I'm genuinely curious - as FD appears to be saying that you can't oppose both the cartoons and the terrorists at the same time if you support freedom speech.


'Accept' people's right to publish it? is this as close to actually supporting freedom of speech that a Muslim can get?

You can be as limp wristed in you 'defense' of liberty as you want. Fortunately for you people with a bit more spine were willing to actually stand up for it and hand it to you on a platter.

Quote:
The old boy’s Jesus and Moh cartoons fit perfectly in the sh!t and run category.


I like them. You're just jealous because your posts aren't funny any more, and his are. Yours fit better than his.

Quote:
Suffice to say though that muslims seem to find them offensive.


That's all it takes for you to insist they should not be published?
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« Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2015 at 9:25pm by freediver »  

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #104 - Jan 9th, 2015 at 9:18pm
 

no infidel cares if muslims are offended.

the Koran was invented by a paedophilic mass murderer

islam is a death cult.

leave the cult
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