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France terror attack is justified by Islam (Read 17766 times)

Karnal

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #120 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 10:41pm

Soren wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 10:33pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 10:27pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 10:02pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 9:49pm:

All perfectly fine points, but it doesn't in any way delegitimise muslim's right to disagree and express non-violent opposition

muslims are not known for expressing NON-VIOLENT opposition.

The only thing Muslims are KNOWN for is violence. Islam is a violent creed, tolerating no dissent. It is a totalitarian menace.

Muslims argue their case by going to your newspaper offices and firebombing them. And if you do not mend your ways, they will come around and shoot you in the head.

YOU CANNOT REASON WITH ISLAM.

Gandy, I hold you personally responsible for what happened in Paris to the extent that you are a Western Muslim and that there can be an Islam in the West that makes such an event possible.

And here’s the old dear expressing his NON VIOLENT opposition to Gandy.

YOU CANNOT REASON WITH THE OLD BOY. Innit.

F Vck orf, PB, the time for your inane BS is over. You are a stupid drongo and that's all you are.

You never had a coherent point before and your inanity is now just completely besides all conceivable points.

FO. You are as relevant as Brain.

Sorry if I caused offense, old boy.

I guess this makes your jolly defense of satire rather redundant, eh?

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Soren

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #121 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 11:06pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 10:38pm:

It’s perfectly coherent, old boy. What you’re saying is say what you want to hear or FO.

Sorry if pointing this out causes offense.

All you do is incoherent rambling, PB. You could not make a coherent point if your life depended on it. That's how far gone you are.
You ramble about cheese and poo. And that's all second hand cheese and poo. You haven't had a non-second hand idea in all your life.

Nam Nam.

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Karnal

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #122 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 11:07pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 9:49pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 8:57pm:

The reasons are very important. I would never say someone should not publish something if I believed they had a right to.publish it.

Why on earth not? I think the distinction is extremely important - the ability to say "you have a right to publish it, but I don't think you should publish it" is just as important vis-a-vis freedom of speech IMO. Otherwise aren't you saying that accepting the right of people to publish things means you must therefore support them publishing it? What happened to my freedom to oppose? You then just become every bit as anti-freedom as the other end of the scale don't you?

Quote:

If Muslims have an issue with non-Muslims publishing the image of Mohammed alone, that’s their problem. We know the reasons for the ban on Muhammed’s image, and modern.satire has nothing to do with them. Besides, satire is about making fun of such taboos. That’s the very point of satire. People can still be religious and amused - or religious and at least tolerant of others’ amusement.

All perfectly fine points, but it doesn't in any way delegitimise muslim's right to disagree and express non-violent opposition, even outrage, towards these images and call on the publisher to desist. And in a trully fair and free society, we should not merely accept muslim's rights to do this, but embrace it as a demonstration of freedom of speech functioning as it should - even if you are at the same time denouncing them as idiots. I happen to believe you can hold all of these views and be the perfect model of a freedom loving citizen. But FD seems to believe that these expressions represent a "chipping away at our freedoms"

Again, G, no one can persuade someone to self-censor without giving them good reasons why they should do so.

The Charlie audience is not Muslims per se, but the Charlie cover does refer to Muslims. It’s fair to expect respect to Muslims, but at first glance, I honestly can’t see how the cartoon we’ve seen here is at all offensive to Muslims.

As far as I know, this has never been explained to the editors (or at least debated in public). Last year, Charlie staff were issued death threats, and told, old boy style, to FO.

And this year, they were slaughtered in broad daylight.

A magazine is a dialogue with its readers, but a magazine like this is a dialogue on a range of debates. Sure, I can imagine situations where certain material should not be published, but there needs to be extremely detailed and compelling reasons why.

Publish the image of Muhammed or get killed is not a good reason, it’s just old boy schtick.

See below to get the general gist.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #123 - Jan 9^th, 2015 at 11:32pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 11:07pm:

Again, G, no one can persuade someone to self-censor without giving them good reasons why they should do so.

Of course they can't - not unless that someone is extremely stupid or gullible. But thats not the point - the point is people should be free to try and persuade no matter how absurd the proposal, so long as it doesn't impinge on other people's rights. What are you suggesting - that there should be a law against calling for things without good reason?

Basically my concern in all this is that people are misinterpreting "you should not publish that" as "you have no right to publish that - and should be stopped by force". Why else would FD equate marching against cartoons with "chipping away at our freedoms"?

Karnal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 11:07pm:

The Charlie audience is not Muslims per se, but the Charlie cover does refer to Muslims. It’s fair to expect respect to Muslims, but at first glance, I honestly can’t see how the cartoon we’ve seen here is at all offensive to Muslims.

They publish cartoons using negative racial stereotypes (muslims are always hook-nosed arabs - usually frothing at the mouth and looking generally sinister) and depicting the prophet in a negative light. I shouldn't have to explain how a shot of the prophet, naked, from behind complete with scrotum looking like a prostitute is offensive to muslims - or do I?

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #124 - Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:03am

Karnal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 11:07pm:

Charlie staff were issued death threats, and told, old boy style, to FO.

F V ck orf PB. I have never firebombed anything. So f Vck orf with the old boy style equivalence crap. The time is over for this, Paki arse hole.

A newspaper has been shot up, 12 + people have been killed for simply not taking Islam and Mohammed sufficiently seriously. No room for your nonsense, PB. There is no barbed wire fence for you to enjoy saddling, old queen.i

« Last Edit: Jan 10^th, 2015 at 10:02am by Soren »

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Brian Ross

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #125 - Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:07am

Soren wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:03am:

Karnal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2015 at 11:07pm:

Charlie staff were issued death threats, and told, old boy style, to FO.

F V ck orf PB. I have never firebombed anything. So f Vck orf with the old bov style equivalence crap. The time is over for this, Paki arse hole.

Using your reasoning, you are just as responsible as those who throw the firebombs at Mosques, Soren. Why are you denying it? Roll Eyes

Quote:

A newspaper has been shot up, 12 + people have been killed for simply not taking Islam and Mohammed sufficiently seriously. No room for your nonsense, PB. There is no barbed wire fence for you to enjoy saddling, old queen.

I think the problem was that the magazine (it wasn't a newspaper) failed to take the threat of Islamist extremists seriously enough, not that they didn't take Islam and Mohammed sufficiently seriously. They obviously thought they were invulnerable and paid the price unfortunately. Complacency and arrogance was their problem. Rather like yours is, Soren. Roll Eyes

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Karnal

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #126 - Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:21am

I haven’t seen the scrotal cartoon, G but yes - I do think people should explain why this is offensive if they want others to show restraint. This is the only way they will get people on side.

Likewise, I think those who publish such images should show restraint. I have no idea what the cartoon you describe was about or what it was saying.

The same is true of racial caricatures. A hook-nosed Arab is not offensive in itself, just as Elmer Fudd is not offensive to crackers. A hook-nosed Arab is a hook-nosed Arab. If you tried to neuter out any caricaturization of race in visual representation, you’d do away with most art, film, TV and visual media.

Charlie pokes fun at all religions, and it’s incredibly precious to expect it not to.do the same about Islam. There are many Muslims who enjoy jokes about Muhammed, just as there are Christians who love taking the p!ss out of Jesus and the church.

To be honest, I can’t imagine an image of Jesus’ testicles, but on the face of it I don’t think this should be banned. I can, however, see how it would be highly offensive to a range of people, the old boy especially.

Sure, if it’s designed just to cause offense - and I put the ridiculous Piss Christ in this category, I can’t see any merit in it and I have no problem banning it (as counter-productive as this will be). I would not like to be the one tasked with making such a decision, however. If it was up to me, almost everything would get through.

Personally, I find the image of a crucified Jesus rather gruesome, but it’s just something we’ve come to accept. If an image of Jesus and his testicles chasing a prostitute made a reasonable point, I do think it serves a purpose, and I do think Muslims should be able to see the purpose in such a Muhammed image too.

We aren’t Muslims, Christians, hook-nosed Arabs and crackers, we’re people. Those divisions are essentially artificial.

Good art and satire, I think, should reveal this rather than reinforce the divisions. One of the best way to do this is to make fun of those very caricatures and idols.

And I do.think this needs to be done with humility and respect.

« Last Edit: Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:32am by Karnal »

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 105148 Melbourne Gender:	Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam Reply #127 - Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:24am Quote: France terror attack is justified by Islam Muslim activists must be rounded up - detention without trial.
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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 41875	Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam Reply #128 - Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:27am Bobby. wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:24am: Quote: France terror attack is justified by Islam Muslim activists must be rounded up - detention without trial. So much for their civil liberties. BTW, Bobby, how well did detention without trial work out for the British in Northern Ireland again?
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Bobby.

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #129 - Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:28am

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:27am:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:24am:

Quote:

France terror attack is justified by Islam

Muslim activists must be rounded up -

detention without trial.

So much for their civil liberties. BTW, Bobby, how well did detention without trial work out for the British in Northern Ireland again? Roll Eyes

It worked well.

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Brian Ross

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #130 - Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:32am

Bobby. wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:28am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:27am:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:24am:

Quote:

France terror attack is justified by Islam

Muslim activists must be rounded up -

detention without trial.

So much for their civil liberties. BTW, Bobby, how well did detention without trial work out for the British in Northern Ireland again? Roll Eyes

It worked well.

Did it? Most observers believe it intensified and prolonged "the troubles", Bobby.

Do you believe destroying the very principles that our society is founded on will do it any good? Roll Eyes

« Last Edit: Jan 10^th, 2015 at 6:19pm by Brian Ross »

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Bobby.

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #131 - Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:34am

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:32am:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:28am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:27am:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:24am:

Quote:

France terror attack is justified by Islam

Muslim activists must be rounded up -

detention without trial.

So much for their civil liberties. BTW, Bobby, how well did detention without trial work out for the British in Northern Ireland again? Roll Eyes

It worked well.

Did it? Most observers belief it intensified and prolonged "the troubles", Bobby.

Do you believe destroying the very principles that our society is founded on will do it any good? Roll Eyes

Desperate times require extraordinary measures.

This is only the start - it will get worse.

We need to hang anyone involved in terrorism.

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Brian Ross

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #132 - Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:37am

Bobby. wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:34am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:32am:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:28am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:27am:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:24am:

Quote:

France terror attack is justified by Islam

Muslim activists must be rounded up -

detention without trial.

So much for their civil liberties. BTW, Bobby, how well did detention without trial work out for the British in Northern Ireland again? Roll Eyes

It worked well.

Did it? Most observers belief it intensified and prolonged "the troubles", Bobby.

Do you believe destroying the very principles that our society is founded on will do it any good? Roll Eyes

Desperate times require extraordinary measures.

Isn't that what all tyrants claim to justify their tyranny, Bobby?

Quote:

This is only the start - it will get worse.

We need to hang anyone involved in terrorism.

Couldn't agree more. You of course will sort the innocent from the guilty though and give them a free and fair trial, Bobby? Or will those principles disappear in your tyrannical terror? Monsieur Citizen Robespierre by chance? You do know what happened to him in the end of his Terror? He got fed into it's bloody maw, just like all the other victims. Roll Eyes

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95845 Gender:	Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam Reply #133 - Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:55am Dang, boys, only free and fair trial a man gets in Karnal.City is when the judge wakes up at the end and says, hang ’em by their necks until they’s dead.
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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 105148 Melbourne Gender:	Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam Reply #134 - Jan 10^th, 2015 at 6:31am Karnal wrote on Jan 10^th, 2015 at 12:55am: Dang, boys, only free and fair trial a man gets in Karnal.City is when the judge wakes up at the end and says, hang ’em by their necks until they’s dead. No - they would get a fair trial - a fair appeal - & then get hanged.
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