Australian Politics Forum - France terror attack is justified by Islam

freediver

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #225 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 5:58pm

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My take, however, is that such ideologies must be based within the economic superstructure.

Why? If Islamism ignores political boundaries, why would it ignore economic ones?

Quote:

It is impossible to have ideologies or geopolitical world views without a sustained, well-funded production of knowledge.

Seventh century arab tribesmen maintained geopolitical world views. I think we are well beyond that.

Quote:

Likewise, it is impossible to even have economies without sustained, well-funded ideologies.

People will trade as far as their property rights can be protected.

Quote:

People regulate their desires and behaviour within economies - school, the production line, leisure time.

People's desires are the economy.

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|dev|null

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #226 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 6:11pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 1:47pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 11:22am:

Islamist attackers aren't representative of mainstream Islam.

Muslim heroes are representative of mainstream Islam.

Worked it out yet?

Islamist attackers are following islam or they wouldn't be called Islamists.

Why will you not differentiate between Islamism and Islam, Baron?

The Islamist follow an extreme interpretation of Islam exactly as Fred Phelps did. Would you say he was representative of mainstream Christianity?

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People can be good in spite of Islam not because of Islam.

People can also be good because of Islam Baron. Just as people can be bad because of Christianity. Grin

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Soren

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #227 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 6:18pm

|dev|null wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 3:05pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 2:24pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 11:49am:

Which Islamic Caliphate are we discussing?

IS has proclaimed itself the Caliphate.

So has Boko Haram.

Will the real Caliph please stand up? Grin

Every Muslim is a caliphate unto himself.

So, explain then Soren how there is IS and Boko Haram declaring they are the Caliphates and every Muslim declaring themselves a Caliphate?

My understanding is that Sunni Islam appoints (or rather self-appoints) a Caliph. Sh'ia Islam claims that a Caliph must be a direct descendent from the Prophet.

I'm genuinely interested at discrepancy between the different Caliphate which appears to contradict your view that Islam is monolithic. Grin

Monolithic - that is your line and you peddle it relentlessly even if no-one else has ever said that. I have never argued that Islam is monolithic; that I have is entirely your invention.

That I am not sympathetic to any of its versions and strands is not the same as viewing it as a monolith. But you have always been too thick to comprehend such a simple thing.

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Soren

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #228 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 6:26pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 2:27pm:

My take, however, is that such ideologies must be based within the economic superstructure. In our case, this involves competing nation states and economies.

It is impossible to have ideologies or geopolitical world views without a sustained, well-funded production of knowledge. Likewise, it is impossible to even have economies without sustained, well-funded ideologies. People regulate their desires and behaviour within economies - school, the production line, leisure time. People will even kill themselves for ideological/economic reasons: the main target of September 11 was the World Trade Centre.

turgid, pretentious theorizing, drawn from the slavishly idolized but hopelessly inaccurate and unreliable Michel Foucault.

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|dev|null

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #229 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 6:30pm

Soren wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 6:18pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 3:05pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 2:24pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 11:49am:

Which Islamic Caliphate are we discussing?

IS has proclaimed itself the Caliphate.

So has Boko Haram.

Will the real Caliph please stand up? Grin

Every Muslim is a caliphate unto himself.

So, explain then Soren how there is IS and Boko Haram declaring they are the Caliphates and every Muslim declaring themselves a Caliphate?

My understanding is that Sunni Islam appoints (or rather self-appoints) a Caliph. Sh'ia Islam claims that a Caliph must be a direct descendent from the Prophet.

I'm genuinely interested at discrepancy between the different Caliphate which appears to contradict your view that Islam is monolithic. Grin

Monolithic - that is your line and you peddle it relentlessly even if no-one else has ever said that. I have never argued that Islam is monolithic; that I have is entirely your invention.

That I am not sympathetic to any of its versions and strands is not the same as viewing it as a monolith. But you have always been too thick to comprehend such a simple thing.

Soren you treat Islam and Muslims as if they were monolithic. For you, if one Muslim says one thing, then all Muslims must believe it. If you believe Islam says something, then all Muslims believe it.

The Christian Bible contains the Old Testament and the New. Christians here, such as Moses, claim that the Old Testament has been discarded, yet it is still an integral part of the Bible. Yadda likes to quote from it. Sprint acts as if he believes it. Using your logic, which Christian should we believe? The one who discards half the Bible or the one who quotes from that part of the Bible or the one who seems to propose acting on those beliefs? Afterall, your logic would treat them as all monolithic! Grin

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
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Karnal

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #230 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 8:13pm

Soren wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 6:26pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 2:27pm:

My take, however, is that such ideologies must be based within the economic superstructure. In our case, this involves competing nation states and economies.

It is impossible to have ideologies or geopolitical world views without a sustained, well-funded production of knowledge. Likewise, it is impossible to even have economies without sustained, well-funded ideologies. People regulate their desires and behaviour within economies - school, the production line, leisure time. People will even kill themselves for ideological/economic reasons: the main target of September 11 was the World Trade Centre.

turgid, pretentious theorizing, drawn from the slavishly idolized but hopelessly inaccurate and unreliable Michel Foucault.

Nice to see we agree, old boy.

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Karnal

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #231 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 8:15pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 5:58pm:

Quote:

My take, however, is that such ideologies must be based within the economic superstructure.

Why? If Islamism ignores political boundaries, why would it ignore economic ones?

Quote:

It is impossible to have ideologies or geopolitical world views without a sustained, well-funded production of knowledge.

Seventh century arab tribesmen maintained geopolitical world views. I think we are well beyond that.

Quote:

Likewise, it is impossible to even have economies without sustained, well-funded ideologies.

People will trade as far as their property rights can be protected.

Quote:

People regulate their desires and behaviour within economies - school, the production line, leisure time.

People's desires are the economy.

Ah.

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Soren

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #232 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 8:56pm

|dev|null wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 6:30pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 6:18pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 3:05pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 2:24pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 11:49am:

Which Islamic Caliphate are we discussing?

IS has proclaimed itself the Caliphate.

So has Boko Haram.

Will the real Caliph please stand up? Grin

Every Muslim is a caliphate unto himself.

So, explain then Soren how there is IS and Boko Haram declaring they are the Caliphates and every Muslim declaring themselves a Caliphate?

My understanding is that Sunni Islam appoints (or rather self-appoints) a Caliph. Sh'ia Islam claims that a Caliph must be a direct descendent from the Prophet.

I'm genuinely interested at discrepancy between the different Caliphate which appears to contradict your view that Islam is monolithic. Grin

Monolithic - that is your line and you peddle it relentlessly even if no-one else has ever said that. I have never argued that Islam is monolithic; that I have is entirely your invention.

That I am not sympathetic to any of its versions and strands is not the same as viewing it as a monolith. But you have always been too thick to comprehend such a simple thing.

Soren you treat Islam and Muslims as if they were monolithic. For you, if one Muslim says one thing, then all Muslims must believe it. If you believe Islam says something, then all Muslims believe it.

The Christian Bible contains the Old Testament and the New. Christians here, such as Moses, claim that the Old Testament has been discarded, yet it is still an integral part of the Bible. Yadda likes to quote from it. Sprint acts as if he believes it. Using your logic, which Christian should we believe? The one who discards half the Bible or the one who quotes from that part of the Bible or the one who seems to propose acting on those beliefs? Afterall, your logic would treat them as all monolithic! Grin

See highlighted clause above.

Geddit?

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Brian Ross

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #233 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 9:12pm

Soren wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 8:56pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 6:30pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 6:18pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 3:05pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 2:24pm:

|dev|null wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 11:49am:

Which Islamic Caliphate are we discussing?

IS has proclaimed itself the Caliphate.

So has Boko Haram.

Will the real Caliph please stand up? Grin

Every Muslim is a caliphate unto himself.

So, explain then Soren how there is IS and Boko Haram declaring they are the Caliphates and every Muslim declaring themselves a Caliphate?

My understanding is that Sunni Islam appoints (or rather self-appoints) a Caliph. Sh'ia Islam claims that a Caliph must be a direct descendent from the Prophet.

I'm genuinely interested at discrepancy between the different Caliphate which appears to contradict your view that Islam is monolithic. Grin

Monolithic - that is your line and you peddle it relentlessly even if no-one else has ever said that. I have never argued that Islam is monolithic; that I have is entirely your invention.

That I am not sympathetic to any of its versions and strands is not the same as viewing it as a monolith. But you have always been too thick to comprehend such a simple thing.

Soren you treat Islam and Muslims as if they were monolithic. For you, if one Muslim says one thing, then all Muslims must believe it. If you believe Islam says something, then all Muslims believe it.

The Christian Bible contains the Old Testament and the New. Christians here, such as Moses, claim that the Old Testament has been discarded, yet it is still an integral part of the Bible. Yadda likes to quote from it. Sprint acts as if he believes it. Using your logic, which Christian should we believe? The one who discards half the Bible or the one who quotes from that part of the Bible or the one who seems to propose acting on those beliefs? Afterall, your logic would treat them as all monolithic! Grin

See highlighted clause above.

Geddit?

So, effectively you are treating the religion and all it's believers as if they were a monolith, despite all your claims to the contrary, Soren. I've often said you have erected a strawman view of Islam and Muslims, yet you're surprised when I suggest that you're a bigot. What a man full of contradictions and hypocrisy you are, Soren. Roll Eyes

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Soren

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #234 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 9:40pm

Brain, every day you prove yourself thicker than expected.
I say that I am not sympathetic to any versions of Islam - and in your and Junior Brain's brain it registers as 'he said Islam is monolithic'.
I have to give it to you, pal, you have the power to be stupid in novel and innovative ways.

If I had said, 'I am not sympathetic towards insects, Greek gods or idiots - does that render the great variety of insects, Greek gods and idiots 'monolithic'?

Explain, Brain, explain.

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Brian Ross

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #235 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 10:03pm

Soren wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 9:40pm:

Brain, every day you prove yourself thicker than expected.
I say that I am not sympathetic to any versions of Islam - and in your and Junior Brain's brain it registers as 'he said Islam is monolithic'.
I have to give it to you, pal, you have the power to be stupid in novel and innovative ways.

If I had said, 'I am not sympathetic towards insects, Greek gods or idiots - does that render the great variety of insects, Greek gods and idiots 'monolithic'?

Explain, Brain, explain.

Soren, stop being obtuse, it doesn't become you.

By your unwillingness to differentiate between any and all Muslims you are effectively treating them as if they were a monolithic group. It would be just as if you claimed all Christians were the same and held exactly the same beliefs. Are Lutheran beliefs the same as Catholics' or Eastern Orthodoxs' or Coptics' or Nestorians', Soren? Roll Eyes

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49075 At my desk.	Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam Reply #236 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 10:12pm Try saying it a bit slower Soren.
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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 41932	Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam Reply #237 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 10:17pm freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 10:12pm: Try saying it a bit slower Soren. He could try shouting as well. However, I doubt it will make any more sense, FD. 'cause he isn't speaking any intelligent language as far as I can see.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49075 At my desk.	Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam Reply #238 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 10:27pm I do hope Gandalf appreciates Brian's efforts to stand up for Islam, now that Karnal has noticed what is going on in the world. He does seem a tad ungrateful sometimes.
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Brian Ross

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Re: France terror attack is justified by Islam
Reply #239 - Jan 14^th, 2015 at 10:30pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2015 at 10:27pm:

I do hope Gandalf appreciates Brian's efforts to stand up for Islam, now that Karnal has noticed what is going on in the world. He does seem a tad ungrateful sometimes.

Where am I "standing up for Islam", FD? I'm standing up for Muslims. I am also pointing out the flaws in Soren's point of view. Perhaps you should look at his logic a little more closely - that is if you want to be honest... Roll Eyes

Oh, quick, put this in the attack thread, why don't you? Roll Eyes

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