Australian Politics Forum - Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]

BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Reply #60 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 2:30am

Lady Ignora wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:46pm:

Excellent points made by gandalf on a general (yet specific) level and the poster cods has successfully managed to

drill down

to relevance on very immediate local censorship. Let's stifle anything which might offend Jews, but encourage anything which will offend Muslims.

Cheesy

Let's all go back to 1950s management theory Grin

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Reply #61 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 2:31am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:44pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:26pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:31pm:

Quote:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

So just to be clear Bobby, limits to freedom of speech is contingent upon how overwhelming the evidence is on the particular topic in question?

Presumably you would support gaoling/fining people for claiming the earth is flat or that man-made global warming doesn't exist?

The limit on ANY speech should be veracity...based on evidence.
And 'man-made global warming' is still under discussion/dispute.

In this case, claiming that Jews 'made up' the Holocaust for personal ( Jewish) gain is clearly NOT true.

So let's see gizmo. You're saying we should put limits on what a person can say based on what someone decides is proved by the evidence. Absurd!!! Clearly you're so desperate to justify the double standard of allowing anti Muslim hate speech and bannining anti Jewish hate speech that you come up with this rediculous justification. Global warming you say is still up for discussion. And yet the UN says its beyond doubt. Does that mean you should be put in prison for denying man made GW. And where does that put people with new ideas. Just ignorant!!!! You're absurd double standards are half the reason were in this mess with so called terrorists.

Umm No Global Warming is STILL 'disputed' by scientists who ARE actually AS 'qualified' as the scientists who support it...which makes AGW a 'NEUTRAL' concept, at the moment...so, NO the UN (a political organisation) is WRONG on AGW.

And banning anti-Jewish 'hate speech' (like Holocaust denial, which IS incorrect) is very different to banning Islamic extremist 'hate speech' which IS true, based on the Charlie Hedbo attack, and the the Lindt chocolate attack and any number of OTHER incidents...

Sorry, but Muslim extremists DO , in fact, commit verifiable attacks on Western society, on a regular basis...whereas there is zero proof that the Holocaust idea is anything other than true..

I know you might 'hate' Jews, or Israelis... but actual reality shows that Muslim cause far more deaths and damage than the Jews do.

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Reply #62 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 2:34am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 4:39pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:33pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:31pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

So just to be clear Bobby, limits to freedom of speech is contingent upon how overwhelming the evidence is on the particular topic in question?

Presumably you would support gaoling/fining people for claiming the earth is flat or that man-made global warming doesn't exist?

The limit on ANY speech should be veracity...based on evidence.
And 'man-made global warming' is still under discussion/dispute.

In this case, claiming that Jews 'made up' the Holocaust for personal ( Jewish) gain is clearly NOT true.

lol, and copper internet is good yehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i vote liberal and know stuff Roll Eyes

;D

And that idea is simply because YOU are drug buggered looney...

Gizmo dislikes being shown up as a hypocrite Cry

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier] Reply #63 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 3:54am Denying the holocaust is very different. It absolutely should be against the law.
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cods

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Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Reply #64 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 7:30am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 3:54am:

Denying the holocaust is very different. It absolutely should be against the law.

that makes me laugh...

denying something is only words isnt it??>..

I dont know what proof these deniers have ... so it really all comes down to words....

thats like calling you a paedo without any proof just saying it....

making a law about it.. doesnt stop someone sayin g it or thinking it...

its stupid to take any notice of them.....

its not as if they are threatening to kill anyone for saying the Holocaust did happen.....

is it?

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Rocketanski

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Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Reply #65 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 8:17am

Investigation in the Holocaust has been staunchly suppressed by bodies such as the Holocaust Claims Commission which has an agenda to make the details appear as grim as possible. The Jewish run Auschwitz museum adjusted it's figures on deaths from 4 million to 1.5 million under the weight of irresistible evidence. This is not an isolated case. Aerial photographs taken by the US airforce, Red Cross testimony, official German documents, examination of gravesites, examination of gas chambers and evidence of Holocaust survivors themselves all cast doubts on some of the 'facts' of the Jewish tragedy. I don't see how taking a dry eyed approach to history can be a crime.

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cods

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Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Reply #66 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 9:08am

Rocketanski wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 8:17am:

Investigation in the Holocaust has been staunchly suppressed by bodies such as the Holocaust Claims Commission which has an agenda to make the details appear as grim as possible. The Jewish run Auschwitz museum adjusted it's figures on deaths from 4 million to 1.5 million under the weight of irresistible evidence. This is not an isolated case. Aerial photographs taken by the US airforce, Red Cross testimony, official German documents, examination of gravesites, examination of gas chambers and evidence of Holocaust survivors themselves all cast doubts on some of the 'facts' of the Jewish tragedy. I don't see how taking a dry eyed approach to history can be a crime.

I have to admit to never seeing any of what you describe..not saying it isnt true.. I was neither there nor know anyone first hand who was..

but to me.. to even mention the discrepancy between 4 million and 1.5 million.. is kind of saying..

well 1.,5.mlllion aint that bad.. Roll Eyes

I beg to differ..

why would the armed forces LIE ?.. what was it to them to lie about what they saw...???

look at the killing fields...Cambodia.. where they say 3 million were killed by Pol Pot..

then we have Rwanda..Genocide.

then we have had Bosnia where thousands more were buried in trenches..

so we are told... none of us were there... we have no reason to believe that people lie about these things...

the holocaust was unspeakable...it was humans at their worst...who died or how many... is really beside the point..this was HUMANS doing unspeakable things to other Humans...no one can deny that.

and still we do it..just the forms change...I admit no gas chambers.....so that mean we must have improved... Angry

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freediver

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Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Reply #67 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 9:44am

Quote:

so you admit you CAN censor therefor bang goes Sprints FREEDOM OF SPEECH.....because its up to FD if it acceptable.

I have explained this to you before cods. Not sure why you have such trouble understanding such a basic concept. Would a picture help?

Quote:

How does Sprint's comments to (for example) indiscriminately raze mosques to the ground stand up against Australian hate laws? I'm genuinely curious.

Nobody knows. You'd have to take him to court to find out, and you'd get and answer in 5 or 10 years.

Quote:

Sorry, but Muslim extremists DO , in fact, commit verifiable attacks on Western society, on a regular basis...whereas there is zero proof that the Holocaust idea is anything other than true..

Gizmo, are you saying that the government should dictate what we are allowed to say based on what is officially accepted as true?

Quote:

I know you might 'hate' Jews, or Israelis... but actual reality shows that Muslim cause far more deaths and damage than the Jews do.

This isn't a competition gizmo.

Quote:

but to me.. to even mention the discrepancy between 4 million and 1.5 million.. is kind of saying..
well 1.,5.mlllion aint that bad.. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes I beg to differ..

Some people have principles cods. The truth matters.

Quote:

who died or how many... is really beside the point..

Since when is the truth about the holocaust irrelevant?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Reply #68 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 11:47am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 11:11pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 6:00pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:44pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 5:26pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 16^th, 2015 at 1:31pm:

Quote:

Bobby. wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 11:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2015 at 4:19am:

Hypocrisy within hypocrisy: not only are holocaust denial laws an attack on free speech, but in the law itself, one type of genocide denial is allowed while another is not.

Criticising a non - existent God is different to denying the murder
of 6 million Jews & 6 million other people for
which the evidence is over whelming.

There is no elephant in the room.

So just to be clear Bobby, limits to freedom of speech is contingent upon how overwhelming the evidence is on the particular topic in question?

Presumably you would support gaoling/fining people for claiming the earth is flat or that man-made global warming doesn't exist?

The limit on ANY speech should be veracity...based on evidence.
And 'man-made global warming' is still under discussion/dispute.

In this case, claiming that Jews 'made up' the Holocaust for personal ( Jewish) gain is clearly NOT true.

So let's see gizmo. You're saying we should put limits on what a person can say based on what someone decides is proved by the evidence. Absurd!!! Clearly you're so desperate to justify the double standard of allowing anti Muslim hate speech and bannining anti Jewish hate speech that you come up with this rediculous justification. Global warming you say is still up for discussion. And yet the UN says its beyond doubt. Does that mean you should be put in prison for denying man made GW. And where does that put people with new ideas. Just ignorant!!!! You're absurd double standards are half the reason were in this mess with so called terrorists.

Umm No Global Warming is STILL 'disputed' by scientists who ARE actually AS 'qualified' as the scientists who support it...which makes AGW a 'NEUTRAL' concept, at the moment...so, NO the UN (a political organisation) is WRONG on AGW.

And banning anti-Jewish 'hate speech' (like Holocaust denial, which IS incorrect) is very different to banning Islamic extremist 'hate speech' which IS true, based on the Charlie Hedbo attack, and the the Lindt chocolate attack and any number of OTHER incidents...

Sorry, but Muslim extremists DO , in fact, commit verifiable attacks on Western society, on a regular basis...whereas there is zero proof that the Holocaust idea is anything other than true..

I know you might 'hate' Jews, or Israelis... but actual reality shows that Muslim cause far more deaths and damage than the Jews do.

The fact that were having this argument about what is proved, demonstrates the absurdity of your position. Who decides that something is sufficiently proved that it cannot be denied.

Umm 'reality' proves it. It is a FACT that the Holocaust happened...AND it IS a fact that some climate scientists disagree with the idea that mankind is mostly responsible for climate change...

I get that you're a Green, so you think that anything to do with the Jews is a lie...however, there really is enough evidence (from the Nazis and from the assorted Allied sources) to prove, beyond doubt that the Holocaust is NOT a fabrication, designed to make people feel sorry for the Jewish people..

The holocaust is not proved beyond doubt, nor is the theory of evolution, the theory of relativity or man caused climate change and to make it criminal for people to offer more (and often new) evidence and/or new perspective to the debate is not only stupid, its amongst the most extreme forms of oppression; as bad as anything we would label as facist or totalitarian. Its what the church did when it tried to silence Galileo from challenging the official version of "the facts" about the solar system (just 1 in many examples) And in the case of the holocaust, its extremely racist. No race should ever be elevated above the rest so that their account of "the facts" can never be questioned for all time, esp were something as easily and regularly manipulated as "history" is concerned. I repeat, your blatantly hypocritical double standards is much of the reason why young men are becoming radicalized and fighting back.

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Rocketanski

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Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Reply #69 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 12:34pm

I don't even think reasoned investigation has to be about accepting or refuting an entire argument; it can merely involve questioning a falsehood here, an exaggeration there. I'm nether a Holocaust 'denier' nor a climate 'denier'.
At the same time I just can't overlook the many inconsistencies with both narratives.

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Reply #70 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 1:27pm

Rocketanski wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 12:34pm:

I don't even think reasoned investigation has to be about accepting or refuting an entire argument; it can merely involve questioning a falsehood here, an exaggeration there. I'm nether a Holocaust 'denier' nor a climate 'denier'.
At the same time I just can't overlook the many inconsistencies with both narratives.

Well according to gizmo you have a free speech right to challenge the views of the overwhelming majority of climate experts, even though the UN and over 97% of the experts say man caused climate change is undeniable but you have no such right to free speech and should be put in prison if you question the consenses of historians that "the holocaust" occured, notwithstanding that there are some historians that don't believe that a holocaust occurred. Why the different approaches. Well it seems because gizmo doesn't happen to believe in climate change but does happen to believe in the holocaust.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Reply #71 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 1:31pm

Rocketanski wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 8:17am:

Investigation in the Holocaust has been staunchly suppressed by bodies such as the Holocaust Claims Commission which has an agenda to make the details appear as grim as possible. The Jewish run Auschwitz museum adjusted it's figures on deaths from 4 million to 1.5 million under the weight of irresistible evidence. This is not an isolated case. Aerial photographs taken by the US airforce, Red Cross testimony, official German documents, examination of gravesites, examination of gas chambers and evidence of Holocaust survivors themselves all cast doubts on some of the 'facts' of the Jewish tragedy. I don't see how taking a dry eyed approach to history can be a crime.

Just think, if Andrei had his way, the state would punish you for saying this. If you said this in Germany or France - as well as several other European countries, you really would be punished for saying this. Sobering thought huh?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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cods

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Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Reply #72 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 3:12pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 9:44am:

Some people have principles cods. The truth matters.

whos truth??/ you claim the cartoon s were not offensive ...did nt youj fall about laughing at them... but the Muslim extremist didnt find the amusing..

so whos truth are you referring too?>.. your own as usual?

as for principles....like its ok to abuse an extremist but no one can call fd a M0ron... again whos priciples are we talking about?..freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 9:44am:

who died or how many... is really beside the point..

Since when is the truth about the holocaust irrelevant

what truth again.. 4 mil.. or 1.5.mill..??????

seems to me you have the problem with truth..

the reference I was making was

mankinds inhumanity was worse than any counting... whether it was 1000 or 100 million...

it should never ever have happened...

and what has happened since... tells me we have learnt bugger all..

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freediver

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Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Reply #73 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:28pm

Quote:

whos truth??/ you claim the cartoon s were not offensive .

Earth to cods - we are talking about holocaust denial here. The truth comes about through analysis of the evidence, not from the government telling people what the answer is.

Quote:

as for principles....like its ok to abuse an extremist but no one can call fd a M0ron...

Earth to cods - you are free to do this, just not to compel me to publish your tripe. If there is anything I can do to help you understand this simple point, please let me know.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Aussie

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Re: Je Suis [insert holocaust denier]
Reply #74 - Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:31pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2015 at 5:28pm:

Quote:

whos truth??/ you claim the cartoon s were not offensive .

Earth to cods - we are talking about holocaust denial here. The truth comes about through analysis of the evidence, not from the government telling people what the answer is.

Quote:

as for principles....like its ok to abuse an extremist but no one can call fd a M0ron...

Earth to cods - you are free to do this, just not to compel me to publish your tripe. If there is anything I can do to help you understand this simple point, please let me know.

No, we are talking about people's differing versions of 'truth.' You have concluded cod's version is 'tripe,' so you seek to do what with it, freediver?

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