Australian Politics Forum - FREEDOM OF SPEECH..

Phemanderac

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #345 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:54am

Life_goes_on wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:45am:

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:38am:

Freedom of speech is a fine ideal that I support, well of course, unless you are responding to a taunt on a forum at least - then it's not ok.

Geez, read the fuggin' rules.
"If you participate in any kind of flame war you will be suspended, regardless of who started it or who you think ‘deserved it’. "

I did read them, this is what they start with....

"Do not post personal criticism of other members. Do not respond to personal criticism of yourself or other members."

Now honestly, that which you quoted is not applied unilaterally or with any level of consistency. Neither is that which I quoted by the way....

To my mind this makes the apparent boundary to said "freedom of speech" somewhat wishy washy, unclear, inconsistent, untrustworthy and to be certain - not credible.

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Panther

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #346 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 10:21am

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:54am:

Life_goes_on wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:45am:

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:38am:

Freedom of speech is a fine ideal that I support, well of course, unless you are responding to a taunt on a forum at least - then it's not ok.

Geez, read the fuggin' rules.
"If you participate in any kind of flame war you will be suspended, regardless of who started it or who you think ‘deserved it’. "

I did read them, this is what they start with....

"Do not post personal criticism of other members. Do not respond to personal criticism of yourself or other members."

Now honestly, that which you quoted is not applied unilaterally or with any level of consistency. Neither is that which I quoted by the way....

To my mind this makes the apparent boundary to said "freedom of speech" somewhat wishy washy, unclear, inconsistent, untrustworthy and to be certain - not credible.

Hey, I understand your position, but our Freedom of Speech -- your Freedom of Speech -- is here on this particular forum just as long as the powers that be choose to tolerate what is said. The moment they lose their sense of humor, like a band of gypsies, we will need to travel elsewhere.

I appreciate the courtesies that the owners of this forum have extended to me & us, for it is they who are the real patriots of Freedom & Liberty!

Our Freedom of Speech travels far & wide, but only at the pleasure of those who hear tolerate it.

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« Last Edit: Jan 24^th, 2015 at 10:36am by Panther »

"When the People fear government there is Tyranny;
When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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Phemanderac

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #347 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 10:28am

Panther wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 10:21am:

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:54am:

Life_goes_on wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:45am:

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 9:38am:

Freedom of speech is a fine ideal that I support, well of course, unless you are responding to a taunt on a forum at least - then it's not ok.

Geez, read the fuggin' rules.
"If you participate in any kind of flame war you will be suspended, regardless of who started it or who you think ‘deserved it’. "

I did read them, this is what they start with....

"Do not post personal criticism of other members. Do not respond to personal criticism of yourself or other members."

Now honestly, that which you quoted is not applied unilaterally or with any level of consistency. Neither is that which I quoted by the way....

To my mind this makes the apparent boundary to said "freedom of speech" somewhat wishy washy, unclear, inconsistent, untrustworthy and to be certain - not credible.

Hey, I understand your position, but our Freedom of Speech -- your Freedom of Speech -- is here on this particular forum just as long as the powers that be choose to tolerate what is said. The moment they lose their sense of humor, like a band of gypsies, we will need to travel elsewhere.

I appreciate the courtesies that the owners of this forum have extended to me & us, for it is they who are the real patriots of Freedom & Liberty!

Our Freedom of Speech travels far & wide, but only at the pleasure of those who hear tolerate it.

Whilst I appreciate that which you say, for my part, the "they" you speak of actually are the limiters by and large of any perception of free speech on this board.

Hardly a shining example of patriots to free speech, in my humble opinion at least.

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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

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Panther

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #348 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 10:39am

A forum is not a democracy to be controlled by a vote of the mob. The owner(s) has/have full latitude in how he/they decide to enforce their (not our) rules or not.

Until you are banned for what you say, you are free to say whatever comes to mind.

Just as long as you accept the possibility of penalty, which always exists alongside the freedom to prevent chaos.

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« Last Edit: Jan 24^th, 2015 at 11:03am by Panther »

"When the People fear government there is Tyranny;
When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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ian

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #349 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 10:42am

Panther wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 10:39am:

A forum is not a democracy to be controlled by a vote of the mob. The owner(s) has/have full latitude in how he/they decide to enforce their (not our) rules or not.

Until you are banned for what you say you are free to say whatever comes to mind.

Just as long as you accept the possibility of penalty, which always exists alongside the freedom.

Its either free speech or it isnt? which is it? Free speech only exists without penalty, with penalty there is no free speech. Suggest you grab a dictionary and a book of logical reasoning and take it from there .

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Panther

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #350 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 10:49am

ian wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 10:42am:

Panther wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 10:39am:

A forum is not a democracy to be controlled by a vote of the mob. The owner(s) has/have full latitude in how he/they decide to enforce their (not our) rules or not.

Until you are banned for what you say you are free to say whatever comes to mind.

Just as long as you accept the possibility of penalty, which always exists alongside the freedom.

Its either free speech or it isnt? which is it? Free speech only exists without penalty, with penalty there is no free speech. Suggest you grab a dictionary and a book of logical reasoning and take it from there .

You really don't completely understand Freedom, do you.

Freedom is not an absolute.

With Freedom comes responsibility.

If you are banned, you have the Freedom to take your words with you, to wherever you wish to say them.

No one can stop you from going, just as no one can force you to not exercise your Freedom of Speech, because you can only be penalized
after
your words have already been said, &
after
your words have been heard or seen.

Penalties are a condition you FREELY accepted upon accepting your membership.

You weren't forced into becoming a member were you?

You exercised your Freedom of Choice, did you not?

.

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« Last Edit: Jan 24^th, 2015 at 11:05am by Panther »

"When the People fear government there is Tyranny;
When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

'
Live FREE or DIE!
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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH.. Reply #351 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 11:18am Like i said, get yourself a dictionary and start looking up the words you are using because you dont understand them.
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Panther

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #352 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 11:37am

ian wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 11:18am:

Like i said, get yourself a dictionary and start looking up the words you are using because you dont understand them.

Or on the other hand, you are might be using a faulty interpretation of what you have read, or someone else might have read for you.

As I said before, Freedom is not an absolute.

No one can do everything they conceive of doing, or saying, without needing to take personal responsibility for what they wish to say, do, actually say, or think of saying or doing.

That said, it isn't until after you have exercised your Freedom of Speech, can a penalty for saying what you said, or doing what you did, can be imposed -- if at all.

You can also freely chose to disregard any such penalty, but by doing so you must be willing to accept -- accept full responsibility -- for any ramifications to your actions & decisions.

In the end, you had free speech, you expressed your Freedom of Speech, & what you did or said was heard & or seen.

Now, you can either attempt to understand that, or continue to chase your own tail until you drop dead of exhaustion.

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« Last Edit: Jan 24^th, 2015 at 11:48am by Panther »

"When the People fear government there is Tyranny;
When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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Live FREE or DIE!
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Phemanderac

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #353 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 11:54am

I think there is a gap between the "dictionary" meaning of the word freedom and the application of the word in terms of speech and expression...

That is where some of this apparent confusion/debate is coming from quite clearly.

The dictionary term after all does not mention any LIMITS and, in point of fact, does for all intent and purpose read as an absolute.... particularly this little gem,

"2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc."

That would seem pretty "absolute" to me.

However, I also acknowledge that the stated definition of "Freedom of Speech" does have some stated "regulations" in it generally. This regulations depend on Government of the day and how they interpret them.... Still, it certainly suggests a bit of a lie to the use of the word freedom in association with speech and expression.

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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

"They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean..

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Panther

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #354 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 12:16pm

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 11:54am:

I think there is a gap between the "dictionary" meaning of the word freedom and the application of the word in terms of speech and expression...

That is where some of this apparent confusion/debate is coming from quite clearly.

The dictionary term after all does not mention any LIMITS and, in point of fact, does for all intent and purpose read as an absolute.... particularly this little gem,

"2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc."

That would seem pretty "absolute" to me.

However, I also acknowledge that the stated definition of "Freedom of Speech" does have some stated "regulations" in it generally. This regulations depend on Government of the day and how they interpret them.... Still, it certainly suggests a bit of a lie to the use of the word freedom in association with speech and expression.

I agree to a point.

There are regulations placed on the Freedom of Speech (along with remedies/penalties) by Governments (which in & of themselves are instituted to govern at our will, & by a rule of law we ourselves, or our forbearers, initially establish).

That said, when do those remedies/penalties get imposed?

Before you express yourself, or after you freely express yourself?

If you agree that it is only after the deed is done, then you would have to agree that the moment you expressed yourself you were expressing your Right to the Freedom of Speech.

The way I look at it, that Freedom is not absolute, might be (I'm not perfect, closer than yesterday, but not there yet ) better explained here:

Quote:
........The freedom that an individual or community or state seeks must be consistent with a similar freedom for other individuals, communities or states. National, economic, religious or cultural freedom expresses itself in and by means of the duality of existence. It lives on duality and is sustained by duality; therefore it has to be relative and limited and cannot be infinite. It exists in varying degrees. Even when it is won through persistent effort, it cannot be a permanent attainment, since the external conditions having once been secured are not secured forever but are capable of deteriorating in the course of time.

Now, that said, the Freedom of Speech was not bestowed upon mankind by any person, or by any government.

It is a 'Natural Right' bestowed upon man way before memory, the moment we first spoke, therefore our Freedom of Speech is unlimited/absolute.

Restricted maybe by government, but only after the fact that we have the 'Natural Right' to utilize it.

We can say it, we can express it, but we may be penalized for doing so.

We have to take a personal responsibility in making the choice to use it or not.

Government is powerless to stop you.

All they can do is attempt to deter you, or attempt to stop you from doing/saying something again.

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« Last Edit: Jan 24^th, 2015 at 12:53pm by Panther »

"When the People fear government there is Tyranny;
When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

'
Live FREE or DIE!
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cods

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #355 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 2:31pm

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 6:16am:

freediver wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2015 at 5:56pm:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2015 at 5:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2015 at 9:07am:

Quote:

I'll jump on the war on Islam bandwagon when they take away something that really matters, until then I'll sit back and watch the shenanigans

Pansi this is just another way of you refusing to say just how low you would stoop to appease terrorists. To most people, freedom of speech matters. Where would you draw the line Pansi?

Where would I draw the line?

If they took away my freedom to actively engage in public protest, that's it, war on, until then nah!....I don't do offensive, insulting cartoons about prophets so I'm safe for now.

Is publishing a cartoon mocking Muhammed a form of public protest?

I don't know, maybe, maybe not, you'd have to ask the cartoonist what exactly their intention is, what the reasoning is for attacking Muhammad and those that worship him.

they will get their chance isnt their a march today somewhere.....and their can make up their own placards.asking

"why you dumbarse muslims upset about iddy biddy cartoons... that happen to make me and my mates laugh.."

those who know what being at the brunt of insults and ridicule is like and why are they so bothered about it.?? I am sure will be happy to explain it to them. Roll Eyes

it would appear most aussies are in fear of losing the FoS..so get out there boys use your very own FoS and maybe get some answers...

it must have some meaning pansi.. no one in their right mind would ignore a DEATH warning from mad animals in 2015 unless it MEANT something..

it just appears to have escaped us two.... Roll Eyes

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #356 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 2:54pm

Were you one of the fourteen people told to move on by police for antagonising the Islamic rally at Lakemba last night, freediver?

How far would you go to assert your freedom of speech rights?

Who put their life on the line for their rights? their freedoms?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-23/anti-charlie-hebdo-protesters-in-sydney-re...

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andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49193 At my desk.	Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH.. Reply #357 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 3:36pm Phem is chanting the same stupid mantra as cods. Freedom of speech does not entitle you to compel someone else to publish your tripe.
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Aussie

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #358 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 3:42pm

freediver wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 3:36pm:

Phem is chanting the same stupid mantra as cods. Freedom of speech does not entitle you to compel someone else to publish your tripe.

Neither does it entitle you to use your privileged access to a schmedia outlet to abuse, ridicule and bring into disrepute billions of people because of their religious faith. That access involves the exercise of responsibility and is not carte blanch to publish your said tripe.

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cods

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #359 - Jan 24^th, 2015 at 3:47pm

freediver wrote on Jan 24^th, 2015 at 3:36pm:

Phem is chanting the same stupid mantra as cods. Freedom of speech does not entitle you to compel someone else to publish your tripe.

did you wear your FoS t/shirt to the march fd???>..

nuffink you fink muslims can do about it..

I am sure you did...FoS is in the minds of the beholders..

can I stand outside your home and shout insults at you and your family FD.....???
all in the name of FoS..

btw I have just done time from the boards........yet even you must have seen some of the personal abuse thats been directed at myself.. all in the name of FoS....and thats been ok with you.... Roll Eyes

yet my FoS was stopped in its tracks....

can I guess FD thinks banning his opposition mean he has won the debate????????...how immature.

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