Australian Politics Forum - FREEDOM OF SPEECH..

Happy Lucky Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1030 Gender:	Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH.. Reply #585 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 8:02am Sorry cods, wrong again. The material in the cartoons DID NOT kill anyone. Two crackpot brother practitioners of a violent backward religion took it upon themselves because of an elevated sense of rage to shoot up a building full of newspaper workers. You might get it one of these days.
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Yadda

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #586 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 8:25am

cods wrote on Feb 10^th, 2015 at 9:50pm:

the cartoon didnt kill anyone.....17 people were killed because of the material in the cartoon..

cods,

The cartoon didn't kill anyone.....       .....but 17 people - IN FRANCE - were killed because the cartoons of Charlie Hebdo - IN FRANCE - satirised ISLAM and Mohammed.

It should be poignant and instructive for us to reflect, that the act [of satirising ISLAM and Mohammed] is not a crime in France.

Though the act of satirising ISLAM and Mohammed is a capital crime in almost every moslem majority jurisdiction.

Moslems in France today do not make the laws of France concerning the satirising of ISLAM and Mohammed.

But when [some day] the moslems in France DO make the laws of France concerning the satirising of ISLAM and Mohammed, then they [the moslems] can change the laws of France, and make such behaviour a capital crime.

But until they [the moslems] are able to do so,    .....it will only be the moslems of France who are revealing themselves to be the criminals and murderers.

NOT, THE CARTOONISTS.

Dictionary;
satire = =
1 the use of humour, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people’s stupidity or vices.
2 a play, novel, etc. using satire.    a literary miscellany, especially a poem ridiculing prevalent vices or follies.

Dictionary;
art = =
1 the expression or application of creative skill and imagination, especially through a visual medium such as painting or sculpture.
2 the various branches of creative activity, such as painting, music, literature, and dance.
3 subjects of study primarily concerned with human creativity and social life (as contrasted with scientific or technical subjects).
4 a skill at doing a specified thing.

p.s.
You will never see a cartoon satirising Mohammed being displayed in The National Art Gallery of Saudi Arabia.    [does Saudi Arabia even have National Art Gallery ?]

And i say; Let them [the Saudis] live in their barren desert of thought - imposed upon them, by ISLAM.

But [i say to the Saudis, and to other moslems] do not dare to think that we will allow you vicious, barbaric, intolerant wanna-be-murderers [by our law], to bring your cultural desert to our lands.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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cods

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #587 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 8:43am

Panther wrote on Feb 11^th, 2015 at 7:01am:

cods wrote on Feb 10^th, 2015 at 3:10pm:

Panther wrote on Feb 10^th, 2015 at 12:26pm:

cods wrote on Feb 10^th, 2015 at 10:44am:

...........and besides.. since when have I called you any of those names????>.

so what gives you the right to call me nasty names???................

Pssssssst ..................................... it's called something like ............

"Freedom of Speech"

It's been around for thousands of years

maybe you and your mate havent read FDs RULES..

I can put them up for you... or just press RULES at the top of the page..

I think you may find its not on FDs FOS radar.

thats if you can read rules that is. someone people have trouble with them

Well, I've been there, done that.

But, you still have FoS, rules or none.

I'll say it once again......it obviously needs repeating.

You can always exercise your Right, providing you are willing to accept any penalty connected to you exercising your Right.

Rules can't stop you exercising your Right (like I explained about being creative with cus words earlier).

The penalty imposed on you, if any, will only be placed on you AFTER you've already exercised your Right, not before.

If you are banned for exercising your Right to Free Speech, then the penalty does not negate your Right, merely the Freedom to express your Free Speech .................... again.

I hope this explanation reads ok.

It's nor the Right that's in jeopardy, it's the Freedom to exercise it repeatedly as you wish.

this is what I have been saying all along...

only i call it CONSEQUENCES.. maybe you need to look that word up..seeing as how you are an expert at google..

me and pansi in particular said all along..

draw the cartoon at your PERIL...

same on here swear like at trooper at your PERIAL.

that is why we say.. there is no such thing as FoS.. only in your mind of course....

no one can stop anyone else from thinking bad things...but they can stop it going out into the MARKET PLACE....

like fd exercises his power on the forum......

still think that had CHarlie Hebdo stopped drawing the cartoon that upset the mad terrorists

maybe 17 people would still be alive????...

some still insist the cartoon didnt upset anyone... Roll Eyes

I say it did.....why would they threaten death if they were not upset?...

I am a believe that it takes two to make a war..if each give a little and try to meet in the middle

who knows it could cause peace... isnt it worth a try?

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cods

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #588 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 8:50am

goodness me the politically correct police.....

so if the carftoon didnt kill 17 people..

what was the reason the mad terrorist used??..

I know it was guns....but why Charlie Hebdo??....

what did he do to antagonise. and cause them to kill 12 of his staff??????....

if you are going to be dumb and split hairs why 17 people died.. I cant be bothered with you....

people dying isnt about you winning a point...

I DO KNOW THE CARTOON DIDNT JUMP OFF THE TABLE AND FIRE AN AK47..

everything has a reason....EVERYTHING...

there is usually a reason behind you getting up every morning....I bet even you wish you hadnt bothered getting up some days... Roll Eyes

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Happy Lucky Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1030 Gender:	Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH.. Reply #589 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 10:32am How many ways can a person say, 'they deserved what they got'? I'm exasperated but i'll endevour to keep the insult pistol in the holster.
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Panther

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #590 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 2:51pm

cods wrote on Feb 11^th, 2015 at 8:50am:

goodness me the politically correct police.....

so if the carftoon didnt kill 17 people..

what was the reason the mad terrorist used??..

I know it was guns....but why Charlie Hebdo??....

what did he do to antagonise. and cause them to kill 12 of his staff??????....

if you are going to be dumb and split hairs why 17 people died.. I cant be bothered with you....

people dying isnt about you winning a point...

I DO KNOW THE CARTOON DIDNT JUMP OFF THE TABLE AND FIRE AN AK47..

everything has a reason....EVERYTHING...

there is usually a reason behind you getting up every morning....I bet even you wish you hadnt bothered getting up some days... Roll Eyes

Damn cartoons..........

They should shut-up & keep their opinions to themselves!

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« Last Edit: Feb 11^th, 2015 at 3:00pm by Panther »

"When the People fear government there is Tyranny;
When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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Live FREE or DIE!
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cods

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #591 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 2:58pm

you probably dont get it.... Roll Eyes

but to date its only MAD TERRORIST that threaten to kill..

people who draw cartoons they dont like..

its a bit hard for the slow to absorb I understand that..

but as far as I know.. the Jews and Christians turn the other cheek....most muslims do also.

but as of now we have a mad group of fanatics that go to extremes....

can I guess you mock their silly head lopping videos and chant...

you dont scare me... Roll Eyes

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49233 At my desk.	Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH.. Reply #592 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 3:04pm Cods what do you think would be the likely consequences of adopting your policy of spineless appeasement? So far all you have offered is no dead cartoonists. Do you think the consequences might be a bit broader?
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Panther

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #593 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 3:16pm

cods wrote on Feb 11^th, 2015 at 2:58pm:

you probably dont get it.... Roll Eyes

but to date its only MAD TERRORIST that threaten to kill..

people who draw cartoons they dont like..

its a bit hard for the slow to absorb I understand that..

but as far as I know.. the Jews and Christians turn the other cheek....most muslims do also.

but as of now we have a mad group of fanatics that go to extremes....

can I guess you mock their silly head lopping videos and chant...

you dont scare me... Roll Eyes

Quote:

Question:

Are Muslims permitted to lie?

Summary Answer:

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences."

There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

The Qur'an:

Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."

Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

Qur'an (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"

Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."

Muslim (32:6303) - "...he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)."

Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.

From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression...

"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie.

Additional Notes:

Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms are:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" & "mischief." ..
Continued

Still believe what Muslims say?

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rhino

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #594 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 3:22pm

Panther wrote on Feb 11^th, 2015 at 7:23am:

rhino wrote on Feb 10^th, 2015 at 9:53pm:

Panther wrote on Feb 10^th, 2015 at 6:04pm:

rhino wrote on Feb 10^th, 2015 at 3:14pm:

Panther wrote on Feb 10^th, 2015 at 4:57am:

aquascoot wrote on Feb 9^th, 2015 at 7:00pm:

its un australian to be a dobber.

even Cindy Brady was chastised in the Brady Bunch for being a Tattle Tale.

i would never report anyone, ever, period.

You are required by law to report Child Abuse, so are you saying you would ignore Child Abuse in order to keep your
precious non-dobber status
intact, & protect the abuser.......effectively condoning the act(s)??

Is reporting a Child Abuse crime Un-Australian?

Show this law.

You're a lazy bugger aren't ya.

I won't do your legwork for ya, but because I feel sorry for ya, I'll do ya a favor but just once.....

I'll get ya started, but the rest is up to you.

Now, grab yer little mouse (not that one, the computer one) & click this if you can find the strength.

so you lied, (again) there is no such law.

None is so blind than those that refuse to see.

I can drag a donkey to water, but I can't make it drink.

Not my problem, not my care.

Means absolutely nothing to me. http://imgur.com/0Ox0lEy.gif

Calling me a liar won't change the facts, it only exposes your propensity for ignorance.

Hitting a man with meaningless insult won't cure your lack of knowledge, or gain the high-ground.

Lol, its easy enough, show the law or continue to be called a liar. Not a meaningless insult, a fact, because you made that up to suit your arguement. Grin

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rhino

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #595 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 3:24pm

Panther wrote on Feb 11^th, 2015 at 3:16pm:

[

Additional Notes:

Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms are:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" & "mischief." ..
Continued

You must be a Muslim then based on your propensity for lies.

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cods

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #596 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 4:14pm

freediver wrote on Feb 11^th, 2015 at 3:04pm:

Cods what do you think would be the likely consequences of adopting your policy of spineless appeasement? So far all you have offered is no dead cartoonists. Do you think the consequences might be a bit broader?

well you could ask the two guys the Police have just arrested in Sydney... looks like they have caught the London disease and were planning on randomly chopping off a head.....maybe yours... who knows... as you are the one that wishes to DIG DEEP into the psyche of a mad fanatic...I am sure they will fill you in on how far they are prepared to go....

we know you are not spineless so go on have a go.

tell them to their faces how you will deal with their miserable objections to a funny cartoon.. Roll Eyes

you are the one that has it all worked out your life will fall apart if they stop printing the cartoons......

I do know mine wont.......

however the cartoons are still being printed so I guess your FoS is safe for now... not sure about your head though... Roll Eyes

I am sure the cartoons have not a thing to do with head lopping though.. let us know for sure when you find out.

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Happy Lucky Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1030 Gender:	Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH.. Reply #597 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 4:19pm In other words, hide under the bed and pray the problem goes away. Gotcha.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49233 At my desk.	Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH.. Reply #598 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 4:26pm Well done cods. The consequence of not appeasing terrorists is you get to keep your freedom of speech. Now, what do you think the likely consequences of your appeasement would be?
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cods

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Re: FREEDOM OF SPEECH..
Reply #599 - Feb 11^th, 2015 at 4:33pm

freediver wrote on Feb 11^th, 2015 at 4:26pm:

Well done cods. The consequence of not appeasing terrorists is you get to keep your freedom of speech. Now, what do you think the likely consequences of your appeasement would be?

well I cant think of anything worse than having ones head chopped off in main street can you??..

and as the cartoons are still going and the mocking....you must be proud to stand up to these guys...

like I said fd when you find the answer to your irritating question.. [ i dont have a crystal ball].. letsus all in on it I am sure ASIO will be interested as well.

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