Australian Politics Forum - Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)

it_is_the_light

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Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)
Reply #45 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 1:07am

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 31^st, 2015 at 1:04am:

it_is_the_light wrote on Jan 30^th, 2015 at 7:31pm:

Quote:

I am astounded that your single minded agenda here is to somehow shift the burden of guilt to the Police.

many blessings

one may be also astounded at your level of ignorance

this is forgiven

yet you will observe facts here

1. police bullets killed katrina dawson

do you deny the fact ?

namaste

Rather rich you speaking of my ignorance, particularly given I have already acknowledged the fact...

many blessings

1. police bullets killed katrina dawson

do you deny the fact ?

this question will be answered by one such as you are

before we continue any dialogue

you will face this fact

namaste

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ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : ) ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯

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it_is_the_light

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Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)
Reply #46 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 1:11am

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 30^th, 2015 at 11:47pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 30^th, 2015 at 2:58pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 30^th, 2015 at 2:52pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 30^th, 2015 at 2:22pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 29^th, 2015 at 8:28pm:

I was struck (bad choice of word) by the fragments etc causing fatalities. In aircraft busts mid-air, there is a sub-sonic 9mm round used in the HK MP5 and derivatives, which is very accurate and reduces risk of puncturing fuselage etc. Might be an idea.

As before, the 5.56 is very high velocity and frangible... perhaps not the best round of choice....

The 5.56 Nato is not a high velocity round, a .243 Winchester shoots 55gr projectiles nearly 800fps faster than the 5.56, the .204 ruger, 22-250 are also much faster.

The 9mm has questionable stopping power in the best circumstances,using slower velocity subsonics reduces the power even further,Kinetic energy equation is Mass x Velocity squared/2,since velocity is squared making them slower also reduces energy by a significant amount.

The problem might be the choice of projectiles and not the weapon, the military have to use FMJ because of numerous conventions,hunters use expanding projectiles which fall apart inside the body or destruct if hitting a marble wall.
Of course if Police start using hunting projectiles which are safer for collateral damage the lefties will be outraged when cops blow bigger holes in people.

In a hostage situation with the offender using a firearm the Police should not wait for the offender to start shooting and take him out when first clear shot is available, if you hold someone hostage a gunpoint don't whinge to me when a cop shoots you.

Ha, ha - the 5.56 NATO at (original)3600 fps, then 3100 with shorter barreled weapons, is not a high velocity round, even though it is far faster than the 7.62 at 2700 fps... which is still a high velocity round???????

I think you are confusing your rounds here, Pilgrim...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO

Your link says 3100 fps for 5.56 nato which is still down by over 850fps over a 204 ruger or even a 243w.

The 7.62 Nato is not a high velocity round either.

You remain incorrect - the 5.56 and the 7.62 are rightly classed as high velocity rounds.. the comparison with others is only relative.

Low velocity -

Small Arms -
Low velocity - up to 762m/s (2500 ft)

High velocity-Between 1,066.8 m/s (3,500 ft/s) and 1,524 m/s (5,000 ft/s)

Hyper velocity - Greater than 1,524 m/s (5,000 ft/s)

You will note a gap between 2500 fps and 3500 fps - this is because we are dealing with the US Army current designations, which were moderated to incorporate much higher muzzle velocities than those present in the 1960's-70's.

My training is that anything over 2500 fps is high velocity, and I see no reason to alter that designation.

many blessings

baronvonrort has nothing but semanticisms and un~factoids to offer

as grappler continues to display sound knowledge

in all things military

duty first

namaste

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ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : ) ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯

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it_is_the_light

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Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)
Reply #47 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 1:18am

Aussie wrote on Jan 30^th, 2015 at 6:37pm:

Did you not see the obvious tossing of noise bombs or whatever they are called, while those coppers were just outside but at the door?

many blessings

what has the deployment of various whiz bangs

got to do ... got to do with it , do you think these are a good thing at all ?

and better than getting shot by police up to ,

but not limited to 6 times no less ..

these are quite harmful have you ever been in the same room when these are deployed ?

here is some light reading upon as much

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/07/us-usa-grenade-georgia-idUSKCN0HW02U20...

Georgia deputies cleared after stun grenade injured toddler
BY DAVID BEASLEY
ATLANTA Mon Oct 6, 2014 9:26pm EDT

(Reuters) - A grand jury in Georgia on Monday declined to indict sheriff's deputies who during a drug raid in May set off a stun grenade that severely injured a 19-month-old boy, prosecutors said Monday.

The toddler, Bounkham Phonesavanh, was badly burned when the "flash-bang" device landed in the playpen where he was sleeping during a raid to arrest a suspect police say had sold methamphetamine to an undercover officer in northeastern Georgia.

A federal investigation of the incident is still pending, Habersham County District Attorney Brian Rickman said.

County Sheriff Joey Terrell has called the boy's injuries “devastating” but unavoidable, saying police who tossed the grenade to distract the suspect did not believe children were in the home.

The suspect, a relative of the child, was not in the house during the raid but was later arrested nearby, police have said.

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« Last Edit: Jan 31^st, 2015 at 2:27am by it_is_the_light »

ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : ) ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯

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Phemanderac

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Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)
Reply #48 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 7:07am

it_is_the_light wrote on Jan 31^st, 2015 at 1:07am:

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 31^st, 2015 at 1:04am:

it_is_the_light wrote on Jan 30^th, 2015 at 7:31pm:

Quote:

I am astounded that your single minded agenda here is to somehow shift the burden of guilt to the Police.

many blessings

one may be also astounded at your level of ignorance

this is forgiven

yet you will observe facts here

1. police bullets killed katrina dawson

do you deny the fact ?

namaste

Rather rich you speaking of my ignorance, particularly given I have already acknowledged the fact...

many blessings

1. police bullets killed katrina dawson

do you deny the fact ?

this question will be answered by one such as you are

before we continue any dialogue

you will face this fact

namaste

Since you have either failed abysmally at reading my original post fully, or if you did, you failed abysmally to comprehend that which I wrote in plain English - you sir are in no position to now dictate terms of reference to me.

Further, there is another salient fact which you blatantly (neh, belligerently even) appear to refuse to acknowledge/accept or address....

Were the Police responding the the fact that the criminal Man Monis had just opened fire (by shooting the store manager) in the back of the head....

There is a little factoid that you seem quite willing to overlook in order, it would appear, to apportion blame or guilt fully upon the Police.

Write your prose all you like.
Be a conspiranaut all you like, but, don't for one minute think that you are in any position to dictate which facts can or cannot be debated.

So, in point of fact good sir, discussion cannot continue until you go back and fully read my post. Then you would need to acknowledge that I have in fact already acknowledged/addressed your little concern. After you have done all that, by all means, feel free to acknowledge the fact that after some sixteen hours, the Police acted when the criminal Man Monis opened fire, murdering one of his remaining hostages.

Once you have done those few simple tasks - I would be curious about what you think should have occured once Man Monis shot Tori Johnson in the back of the head.... However, not until you demonstrate the integrity required for a full and thorough discussion.

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it_is_the_light

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Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)
Reply #49 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 7:17am

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 31^st, 2015 at 7:07am:

it_is_the_light wrote on Jan 31^st, 2015 at 1:07am:

Phemanderac wrote on Jan 31^st, 2015 at 1:04am:

it_is_the_light wrote on Jan 30^th, 2015 at 7:31pm:

Quote:

I am astounded that your single minded agenda here is to somehow shift the burden of guilt to the Police.

many blessings

one may be also astounded at your level of ignorance

this is forgiven

yet you will observe facts here

1. police bullets killed katrina dawson

do you deny the fact ?

namaste

Rather rich you speaking of my ignorance, particularly given I have already acknowledged the fact...

many blessings

1. police bullets killed katrina dawson

do you deny the fact ?

this question will be answered by one such as you are

before we continue any dialogue

you will face this fact

namaste

Since you have either failed abysmally at reading my original post fully, or if you did, you failed abysmally to comprehend that which I wrote in plain English - you sir are in no position to now dictate terms of reference to me.

Further, there is another salient fact which you blatantly (neh, belligerently even) appear to refuse to acknowledge/accept or address....

Were the Police responding the the fact that the criminal Man Monis had just opened fire (by shooting the store manager) in the back of the head....

There is a little factoid that you seem quite willing to overlook in order, it would appear, to apportion blame or guilt fully upon the Police.

Write your prose all you like.
Be a conspiranaut all you like, but, don't for one minute think that you are in any position to dictate which facts can or cannot be debated.

So, in point of fact good sir, discussion cannot continue until you go back and fully read my post. Then you would need to acknowledge that I have in fact already acknowledged/addressed your little concern. After you have done all that, by all means, feel free to acknowledge the fact that after some sixteen hours, the Police acted when the criminal Man Monis opened fire, murdering one of his remaining hostages.

Once you have done those few simple tasks - I would be curious about what you think should have occured once Man Monis shot Tori Johnson in the back of the head.... However, not until you demonstrate the integrity required for a full and thorough discussion.

many blessings

you continue to avoid this fact ...

this will be addressed first and foremost

then we shall continue and one such as I am

will answer your questions yet you must answer this first .

so we have an understanding .

until then I will not address anything you write directed unto one in whom I am , and so ..

1. police bullets killed katrina dawson

do you deny the fact ?

this question will be answered by one such as you are

before we continue any dialogue

you will face this fact

namaste

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ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : ) ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯

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it_is_the_light

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Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)
Reply #50 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 7:23am

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-31033369

29 January 2015 Last updated at 08:25 Share this pagePrint
ShareFacebookTwitter
Sydney siege inquest details Tori Johnson and Katrina Dawson deaths

The start of an inquest into the Sydney cafe siege has heard that hostage Katrina Dawson was killed by fragments from a police bullet or bullets.

do any deny this fact ?

if so please produce the evidence that discredits the fact

that police bullets killed dawson .

this will be addressed before we go on ,

as many think I am making this report up

yet I merely post the fact from multiple news sources

namaste

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ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : ) ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯

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Amadd

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Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)
Reply #51 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 7:26am

As mentioned earlier, it's a little strange that 6 fragments could hit one person and no others. Or maybe some others were hit but not seriously?

Also, the earlier media report of the manager attacking the gunman seems way off the mark. How could that story go on for so long with all of those eyewitnesses?

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PZ547

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Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)
Reply #52 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 7:38am

Aussie wrote on Jan 30^th, 2015 at 6:37pm:

Did you not see the obvious tossing of noise bombs or whatever they are called, while those coppers were just outside but at the door?

Yes. Saw them. Was with others at the time this was shown on tv and we all thought it was ridiculous and highly unprofessional with police jamming the door in their attempts to get inside - like a pack of kids playing 'wars' or something

I could be convinced that an important 'someone' (not mentioning the word 'Murdoch' here, but I could be persuaded) wanted AKSHUN -- wanted a big story for the following day's media

either that or an important/influential 'someone' thought early hours of the morning would be an opportune time - plus lack of witnesses at that o'clock

Total ballsup, imo. Like something you'd expect from a tin-pot regime in deepest Africa

It was drip-fed for hours. A lot of it looked staged and not well staged

What a mess - awful

Frankly, there's not much of the fiasco that I buy

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Bobby.

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Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)
Reply #53 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 7:54am

Amadd wrote on Jan 31^st, 2015 at 7:26am:

As mentioned earlier, it's a little strange that 6 fragments could hit one person and no others. Or maybe some others were hit but not seriously?

Also, the earlier media report of the manager attacking the gunman seems way off the mark. How could that story go on for so long with all of those eyewitnesses?

That was me.

If there fragments flying around -
how come they only hit one person?

Fragments would spread randomly in all directions.

It all smells fishy to me.

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Steampipe

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Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)
Reply #54 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 8:37am

it_is_the_light wrote on Jan 31^st, 2015 at 7:23am:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-31033369

29 January 2015 Last updated at 08:25 Share this pagePrint
ShareFacebookTwitter
Sydney siege inquest details Tori Johnson and Katrina Dawson deaths

The start of an inquest into the Sydney cafe siege has heard that hostage Katrina Dawson was killed by fragments from a police bullet or bullets.

do any deny this fact ?

if so please produce the evidence that discredits the fact

that police bullets killed dawson .

this will be addressed before we go on ,

as many think I am making this report up

yet I merely post the fact from multiple news sources

namaste

No one disputes the facts Marty, its just no one else is using it to inflict even more pain on the people that have suffered immense pain from the episode. We all know what happened but its only you that is trying to use it for your own purpose to retaliate for your rejection you suffer. You need to confront your personal issues directly and not confuse the facts of one issue with another.

Your wanton desire to punish people in authority is overwhelming your ability to display compassion and make sound judgements, you will only heal when you can confront the real cause of your pain. Its why you sit under triangles hoping to find peace, you need to open your heart and learn to trust and love before you will find peace.

You are forgiven and loved

Namaste

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it_is_the_light

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Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)
Reply #55 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 9:32am

Quote:

No one disputes the facts Marty

many blessings beloved

all must face this fact and some do infact dispute the fact

they can not focus and magnify what has happened and just glide over that ..

police bullets hit dawson

many still fail to admit this , and as such

you must admit this and snap out of your malcontent and misplaced abuses and judgements

of a humble messenger

many here can and will not face this simple fact

they skip this and say thats ok ... well is it ok ?

you personally will not know until you face this fact

yet either way be at peace

namaste

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ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : ) ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯

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it_is_the_light

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Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)
Reply #56 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 9:36am

Amadd wrote on Jan 31^st, 2015 at 7:26am:

As mentioned earlier, it's a little strange that 6 fragments could hit one person and no others. Or maybe some others were hit but not seriously?

Also, the earlier media report of the manager attacking the gunman seems way off the mark. How could that story go on for so long with all of those eyewitnesses?

many blessings

now we can focus and magnify truth

as many more evidences are coming to light

namaste

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ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : ) ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯

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it_is_the_light Gold Member Offline Christ Light Posts: 41434 The Pyramid of LIGHT Gender:	Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new) Reply #57 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 9:39am Quote: No one disputes the facts Marty
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)
Reply #58 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 11:18am

'flash-bangs' are designed to daze, frighten, confuse, blind, stun and deafen the offender... to gain an advantage for the intruding force.

The 'gunfire crackle' is like a string of crackers going off - and theoretically should have those effects.

Put yourself in that situation as a lone gunman, suddenly made aware with all this noise and flashing lights etc that your death is imminent.....

Me? I'd dive for cover...... I'm chicken.

In determining how one hostage was hit by fragments, you'd need to know the layout of the room and where the hostages were in relation to the gunman, who would naturally be the prime target. Whether 'fragments of police bullets' is short-hand for 'they gunned her down' accidentally etc, is another story. What kind of 'fragments'; how big; where did the rounds hit to fragment; how close was Monis to this victim? etc...

Anyone got a diagram from the inquest?

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buzzanddidj

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Re: Lindt Cafe Inquest news... (please update any new)
Reply #59 - Jan 31^st, 2015 at 12:12pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 30^th, 2015 at 11:47pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 30^th, 2015 at 2:58pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 30^th, 2015 at 2:52pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 30^th, 2015 at 2:22pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 29^th, 2015 at 8:28pm:

I was struck (bad choice of word) by the fragments etc causing fatalities. In aircraft busts mid-air, there is a sub-sonic 9mm round used in the HK MP5 and derivatives, which is very accurate and reduces risk of puncturing fuselage etc. Might be an idea.

As before, the 5.56 is very high velocity and frangible... perhaps not the best round of choice....

The 5.56 Nato is not a high velocity round, a .243 Winchester shoots 55gr projectiles nearly 800fps faster than the 5.56, the .204 ruger, 22-250 are also much faster.

The 9mm has questionable stopping power in the best circumstances,using slower velocity subsonics reduces the power even further,Kinetic energy equation is Mass x Velocity squared/2,since velocity is squared making them slower also reduces energy by a significant amount.

The problem might be the choice of projectiles and not the weapon, the military have to use FMJ because of numerous conventions,hunters use expanding projectiles which fall apart inside the body or destruct if hitting a marble wall.
Of course if Police start using hunting projectiles which are safer for collateral damage the lefties will be outraged when cops blow bigger holes in people.

In a hostage situation with the offender using a firearm the Police should not wait for the offender to start shooting and take him out when first clear shot is available, if you hold someone hostage a gunpoint don't whinge to me when a cop shoots you.

Ha, ha - the 5.56 NATO at (original)3600 fps, then 3100 with shorter barreled weapons, is not a high velocity round, even though it is far faster than the 7.62 at 2700 fps... which is still a high velocity round???????

I think you are confusing your rounds here, Pilgrim...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO

Your link says 3100 fps for 5.56 nato which is still down by over 850fps over a 204 ruger or even a 243w.

The 7.62 Nato is not a high velocity round either.

You remain incorrect - the 5.56 and the 7.62 are rightly classed as high velocity rounds.. the comparison with others is only relative.

Low velocity -

Small Arms -
Low velocity - up to 762m/s (2500 ft)

High velocity-Between 1,066.8 m/s (3,500 ft/s) and 1,524 m/s (5,000 ft/s)

Hyper velocity - Greater than 1,524 m/s (5,000 ft/s)

You will note a gap between 2500 fps and 3500 fps - this is because we are dealing with the US Army current designations, which were moderated to incorporate much higher muzzle velocities than those present in the 1960's-70's.

My training is that anything over 2500 fps is high velocity, and I see no reason to alter that designation.

Get a ROOM, boys !

i

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Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

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