Australian Politics Forum - God Does Not Exist. End of Story....

Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #210 - Mar 9^th, 2015 at 7:53pm Started listening now.
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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #211 - Mar 9^th, 2015 at 8:41pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 11:32pm:

Raven wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 10:05pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 8:00pm:

Stratos wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 7:47pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 7:44pm:

So who put them there then?

Why would you assume a "who? put them there?

Can you think of any phenomena without a creator? We claim human beings create things, so why can't phenomena not created by humans have a creator? We use cause and effect reasoning everyday. We use it to understand so much of the world around us and to trace things back to their primacy. Why suspend cause and effect reasoning in this instance?

What happens when effect precede cause? According to causality if an event A is a cause of an effect B, then B cannot be a cause of A.

However quantum mechanics has shown it is possible to conceive situations in which a single event can be both, a cause and an effect of another one.

God creates man and man returns the favour?

As we delve deeper into the quantum realm we see something remarkable an effect without a cause.

If we can see there can be an effect without a cause then why does there have to be a creator?

My quantum mechanics is a bit rusty. Perhaps you can explain superposition in laymen terms for me?

So can you explain it or not?

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Soren

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #212 - Mar 10^th, 2015 at 7:40pm

Amadd wrote on Mar 8^th, 2015 at 2:00am:

Soren wrote on Mar 7^th, 2015 at 9:24pm:

vikaryan wrote on Mar 7^th, 2015 at 10:24am:

No one religion can have a monopoly on truth. A common Indian metaphor, about blind men and an elephant, tells of how some blind men touch different parts of an elephant, and then compare notes to find that they are in complete disagreement about the shape of the elephant. The analogy, which is with religion, argues that only by putting together the experiences of all the blind men (individual religions) will gain us an approximate understanding of the whole (truth). A similar viewpoint in the West can be found in the Allegory of the Cave. This is not to say that “anything goes.” Anthropologists, mystics, and religious scholars have noticed several commonalities that run throughout nearly all religions. Hinduism itself, despite its diversity, multiple schools, and multiple perspectives on theology, has some ideas found in every perspective, including karma, dharma, which is like the idea of natural law, and Brahman, the reality which lies at the basis of the universe.

http://thediplomat.com/2015/03/how-to-approach-religion-in-the-21st-century-lessons-from-indias-traditions/

A fricken Indian promoting the "elephants' legs go all the way down" wheeze.

Look at India and tell me that Hinduism is the answer.
It is if you want "every perspective, including karma, dharma" and sh!tting everywhere while talking on your mobile, surrounded by sacred cows, themselves sh!tting everywhere.

Primitive and ridiculous.

Racist ungodly and arrogant.

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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #213 - Mar 10^th, 2015 at 8:38pm Bwahaha You're the one who believes in the words of 2000yr old camel buggerers http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/2013/11/07/assam-rape-festival-story-hoax.htm
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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #214 - Mar 10^th, 2015 at 8:52pm Stratos wrote on Mar 9^th, 2015 at 7:53pm: Started listening now. It might be about time to stop listening.
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Stratos

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #215 - Mar 10^th, 2015 at 10:15pm

Amadd wrote on Mar 10^th, 2015 at 8:52pm:

It might be about time to stop listening.

I've listened to the first two.

Mostly it seems to be riffing on the transcendental argument, as in there are certain properties in our universe that a lack of a "cause" (deity) can account for.

I'll keep listening to see if there is anything else, but my answer to that argument is the same with any unknown (or in the case of the universe, by far more likely unknowable): I don't know therefore I don't know is more honest than I don't know therefore god.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Raven

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #216 - Mar 11^th, 2015 at 1:14am

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 9^th, 2015 at 8:41pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 11:32pm:

Raven wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 10:05pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 8:00pm:

Stratos wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 7:47pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 7:44pm:

So who put them there then?

Why would you assume a "who? put them there?

Can you think of any phenomena without a creator? We claim human beings create things, so why can't phenomena not created by humans have a creator? We use cause and effect reasoning everyday. We use it to understand so much of the world around us and to trace things back to their primacy. Why suspend cause and effect reasoning in this instance?

What happens when effect precede cause? According to causality if an event A is a cause of an effect B, then B cannot be a cause of A.

However quantum mechanics has shown it is possible to conceive situations in which a single event can be both, a cause and an effect of another one.

God creates man and man returns the favour?

As we delve deeper into the quantum realm we see something remarkable an effect without a cause.

If we can see there can be an effect without a cause then why does there have to be a creator?

My quantum mechanics is a bit rusty. Perhaps you can explain superposition in laymen terms for me?

So can you explain it or not?

Schrodinger's cat.

Superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

In the case of Schrodinger's cat he proposed a hypothetical situation where a cat is placed in a chamber with a vial of hydrocyanic acid. There is, in the chamber, a very small amount of a radioactive substance. If even a single atom of the substance decays during the test period, a relay mechanism will trip a hammer, which will, in turn, break the vial. Since there is no way to if the vial has been broken until we look in the chamber the cat can assume to be both alive and dead at the same time.

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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.

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Raven

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #217 - Mar 11^th, 2015 at 1:16am

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 11:20pm:

Quote:

As to our powerful instincts life would not exist without them. It is programed into life over billions of years of evolution, a self replicating protection matrix that through trial and error has enabled life to look after number one at all costs.

Our instincts are natures way of responding to the realities of our world

We're back to instincts again. They have evolved (I prefer the word 'morph', as this doesn't restrict instincts to a linear timeline), but from what? You say "it's natures [sic] way". So who creates nature?

Why does there have to be a who? It's like asking if god created the universe who created god?

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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.

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Amadd

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #218 - Mar 11^th, 2015 at 9:52pm

Stratos wrote on Mar 10^th, 2015 at 10:15pm:

Amadd wrote on Mar 10^th, 2015 at 8:52pm:

It might be about time to stop listening.

I've listened to the first two.

Mostly it seems to be riffing on the transcendental argument, as in there are certain properties in our universe that a lack of a "cause" (deity) can account for.

I'll keep listening to see if there is anything else, but my answer to that argument is the same with any unknown (or in the case of the universe, by far more likely unknowable): I don't know therefore I don't know is more honest than I don't know therefore god.

I suppose it comes down to personal preference.
Some people want or need to know that there is order and grand design, even if it means being dishonest with one's self. Others revel in the mysteries that can be realized and unlocked by using the best of all human qualities.

To me, science and religion are poles apart. One covets all of life's answer within a single book, the other accepts and embraces the reality of a never ending quest for answers via supreme efforts and use of logic, such as the Hadron collider and it's search for the Higgs boson particle.

One can discover definitive answers in incremental steps, the other will always ride upon the coat tails.

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« Last Edit: Mar 11^th, 2015 at 9:59pm by Amadd »

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Stratos

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #219 - Mar 11^th, 2015 at 11:17pm

I'm curious as to what you really got out of this Soren?

Some parts were quite interesting from a philosophical point of view, but it seemed ultimately like the god of the gaps argument.

Oh, and are you aware that Holloway has recanted his faith? While he remains sympathetic to many aspects of religion, it appears he is an atheist now too.

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2009/10/24/exbishop_preaches_a_kinder_atheis...

Sometimes interesting, sometimes dry, thanks for the link. What exactly about his lectures was convincing for you Soren?

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #220 - Mar 12^th, 2015 at 1:03am

Raven wrote on Mar 11^th, 2015 at 1:14am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 9^th, 2015 at 8:41pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 11:32pm:

Raven wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 10:05pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 8:00pm:

Stratos wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 7:47pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 7:44pm:

So who put them there then?

Why would you assume a "who? put them there?

Can you think of any phenomena without a creator? We claim human beings create things, so why can't phenomena not created by humans have a creator? We use cause and effect reasoning everyday. We use it to understand so much of the world around us and to trace things back to their primacy. Why suspend cause and effect reasoning in this instance?

What happens when effect precede cause? According to causality if an event A is a cause of an effect B, then B cannot be a cause of A.

However quantum mechanics has shown it is possible to conceive situations in which a single event can be both, a cause and an effect of another one.

God creates man and man returns the favour?

As we delve deeper into the quantum realm we see something remarkable an effect without a cause.

If we can see there can be an effect without a cause then why does there have to be a creator?

My quantum mechanics is a bit rusty. Perhaps you can explain superposition in laymen terms for me?

So can you explain it or not?

Schrodinger's cat.

Superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

In the case of Schrodinger's cat he proposed a hypothetical situation where a cat is placed in a chamber with a vial of hydrocyanic acid. There is, in the chamber, a very small amount of a radioactive substance. If even a single atom of the substance decays during the test period, a relay mechanism will trip a hammer, which will, in turn, break the vial. Since there is no way to if the vial has been broken until we look in the chamber the cat can assume to be both alive and dead at the same time.

Try not to plagiarise. Stating something word for word by someone else doesn't indicate that you understand the issue. In fact, it's an indication that you don't understand it. Anyway, the example used is a variation of thought experiments done by philosophers before. Yet, it still doesn't help me understand the issue. Why not just check to see if the cat is alive or dead? It's either dead or alive isn't it, and not in two states simultaneously?

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #221 - Mar 12^th, 2015 at 1:05am

Raven wrote on Mar 11^th, 2015 at 1:16am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 11:20pm:

Quote:

As to our powerful instincts life would not exist without them. It is programed into life over billions of years of evolution, a self replicating protection matrix that through trial and error has enabled life to look after number one at all costs.

Our instincts are natures way of responding to the realities of our world

We're back to instincts again. They have evolved (I prefer the word 'morph', as this doesn't restrict instincts to a linear timeline), but from what? You say "it's natures [sic] way". So who creates nature?

Why does there have to be a who? It's like asking if god created the universe who created god?

If we use cause and effect consistently, then we need to always ask what the preceding causes are/were.

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Raven

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #222 - Mar 12^th, 2015 at 1:22am

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 12^th, 2015 at 1:03am:

Raven wrote on Mar 11^th, 2015 at 1:14am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 9^th, 2015 at 8:41pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 11:32pm:

Raven wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 10:05pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 8:00pm:

Stratos wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 7:47pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 4^th, 2015 at 7:44pm:

So who put them there then?

Why would you assume a "who? put them there?

Can you think of any phenomena without a creator? We claim human beings create things, so why can't phenomena not created by humans have a creator? We use cause and effect reasoning everyday. We use it to understand so much of the world around us and to trace things back to their primacy. Why suspend cause and effect reasoning in this instance?

What happens when effect precede cause? According to causality if an event A is a cause of an effect B, then B cannot be a cause of A.

However quantum mechanics has shown it is possible to conceive situations in which a single event can be both, a cause and an effect of another one.

God creates man and man returns the favour?

As we delve deeper into the quantum realm we see something remarkable an effect without a cause.

If we can see there can be an effect without a cause then why does there have to be a creator?

My quantum mechanics is a bit rusty. Perhaps you can explain superposition in laymen terms for me?

So can you explain it or not?

Schrodinger's cat.

Superposition claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check. It is the measurement itself that causes the object to be limited to a single possibility.

In the case of Schrodinger's cat he proposed a hypothetical situation where a cat is placed in a chamber with a vial of hydrocyanic acid. There is, in the chamber, a very small amount of a radioactive substance. If even a single atom of the substance decays during the test period, a relay mechanism will trip a hammer, which will, in turn, break the vial. Since there is no way to if the vial has been broken until we look in the chamber the cat can assume to be both alive and dead at the same time.

Try not to plagiarise. Stating something word for word by someone else doesn't indicate that you understand the issue. In fact, it's an indication that you don't understand it. Anyway, the example used is a variation of thought experiments done by philosophers before. Yet, it still doesn't help me understand the issue. Why not just check to see if the cat is alive or dead? It's either dead or alive isn't it, and not in two states simultaneously?

That's the point. An object can exist in multiple states at the same time, it is the very act of observing that limits the object to a single state.

Because we cannot tell if the vial has been broken the cat can be considered to be both alive and dead. The cat's super position of these two states will collapse to either 'dead' or 'alive' at the very instance the box is opened by a conscious observer thus breaking the superposition.

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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #223 - Mar 12^th, 2015 at 6:45am

Hmm ... I get it but it doesn't seem very convincing. It appears to be similar to the philosophical idealists' argument that the world only exists because we perceive it to exist. If we (human beings) weren't around to perceive the world, the world wouldn't exist. This view precedes quantum theory by about 200 years through George Berkeley. There must be more to quantum theory than this. How did they posit the idea or belief that there are more than two states simultaneously? Was there an experiment seeing the two states simultaneously?

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vikaryan Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 453 Gender:	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #224 - Mar 12^th, 2015 at 7:40am **Can someone please explain this sht?***
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