Australian Politics Forum - God Does Not Exist. End of Story....

Yadda

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #540 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 3:21am

Yadda wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 2:37am:

Jesus is a rallying point, a standard [an 'identifier'] in battle, to rally around.

Reason dictates, that if we love Jesus, we will love what God loves, and hate what God hates.

Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ,....

Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Pho Huc

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #541 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 3:22am

That's a whole heap of scripture, not much insight.

Could you pretty please with sugar on it answer my reasonable request for clarification of a point that you seem to believe you have made.

How can a non christian enter heaven relying solely on natural revelation?

Its ok if you dont know. I certainly don't and i'm only asking you to improve my understanding of the scriptures.

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The law locks up the man who steals the goose from the common, but leaves the greater criminal loose who steals the common from the goose (convict saying)

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Yadda

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #542 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 3:45am

LifeOrDeath wrote on Aug 5^th, 2015 at 11:52pm:

General revelation, sometimes called natural revelation, consists of what God has revealed of Himself via the natural world and moral conscience.

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 3:22am:

That's a whole heap of scripture, not much insight.

Could you pretty please with sugar on it answer my reasonable request for clarification of a point that you seem to believe you have made.

How can a non christian enter heaven relying solely on natural revelation?

Its ok if you dont know. I certainly don't and i'm only asking you to improve my understanding of the scriptures.

Easy.

Matthew 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

natural revelation = = we all know and understand, through our own experience of life, that it is wrong to harm others without cause.

Understanding this [wisdom], and 'fulfilling' this [wisdom], is being obedient to the law and the instruction of the prophets. [ as per, Matthew 7:12 ]

.

Who is the wicked man ?

Who is the man whom God hates ?

It is the man without a conscience [the man who does not listen, to his own conscience as per, Matthew 7:12].

Isaiah 65:11
But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Stratos

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #543 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 9:48am

Yadda wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 3:45am:

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

I've always wondered about this phrase, because on a basic level it seems fair enough, but the more you think about people and the things they "want done to them" the more it opens up to personal interpretation as to what that entails.

I can imagine there are a lot of things that people want done to them that other people wouldn't.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Soren

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #544 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:05am

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 5^th, 2015 at 9:50pm:

Oh, please correct me then!

What is the mechanism that allows those without faith in Alllah/God/Jehovah to ascend after death?

This is the passage I base my statement on.

John 3:16-18

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

You cannot believe or not believe in something you have never heard of. You have to first know about something before you believe it or not believe it.

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Pho Huc

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #545 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:34am

Stratos wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 9:48am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 3:45am:

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

I've always wondered about this phrase, because on a basic level it seems fair enough, but the more you think about people and the things they "want done to them" the more it opens up to personal interpretation as to what that entails.

I can imagine there are a lot of things that people want done to them that other people wouldn't.

I've always though of it as an extension of the "treat others as you wish to be treated" theme.

It breaks down when dealing with psychopath or masochists however!

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The law locks up the man who steals the goose from the common, but leaves the greater criminal loose who steals the common from the goose (convict saying)

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Pho Huc

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #546 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:49am

Yadda wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 3:45am:

LifeOrDeath wrote on Aug 5^th, 2015 at 11:52pm:

General revelation, sometimes called natural revelation, consists of what God has revealed of Himself via the natural world and moral conscience.

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 3:22am:

That's a whole heap of scripture, not much insight.

Could you pretty please with sugar on it answer my reasonable request for clarification of a point that you seem to believe you have made.

How can a non christian enter heaven relying solely on natural revelation?

Its ok if you dont know. I certainly don't and i'm only asking you to improve my understanding of the scriptures.

Easy.

Matthew 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

natural revelation = = we all know and understand, through our own experience of life, that it is wrong to harm others without cause.

Understanding this [wisdom], and 'fulfilling' this [wisdom], is being obedient to the law and the instruction of the prophets. [ as per, Matthew 7:12 ]

Who is the wicked man ?
Who is the man whom God hates ?
It is the man without a conscience [the man who does not listen, to his own conscience as per, Matthew 7:12].

Isaiah 65:11
But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Thanks for the reply Yadda,
I think I see what your scratching at.

But I do not see any verse supporting the proposition that the unbaptized can ascend to heaven, rather only verses strengthening the case for natural revelation.

How can an unbaptized pagan denied direct revelation ascend to heaven?

Moses and WhyWhyWhy have both scolded me for asking such a simple question, and for lacking knowledge in the bible.

They have then totally failed to answer the question themselves.

I don't mind being called ignorant by those with knowledge.

I enjoy being called ignorant by those without knowledge.

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The law locks up the man who steals the goose from the common, but leaves the greater criminal loose who steals the common from the goose (convict saying)

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Stratos

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #547 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 1:01pm

Soren wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:05am:

You cannot believe or not believe in something you have never heard of. You have to first know about something before you believe it or not believe it.

Are you familiar with the beliefs of Calvanism?

Specifically with their concept of predestination as it relates to this question.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Soren

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #548 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 5:29pm

Stratos wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 1:01pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:05am:

You cannot believe or not believe in something you have never heard of. You have to first know about something before you believe it or not believe it.

Are you familiar with the beliefs of Calvanism?

Specifically with their concept of predestination as it relates to this question.

I am not, so thanks for the pointer.

I had a look in Wiki (I know...) and found that there has been a major re-interpretation of it by Karl Bath and others after him - perhaps this is why Calvinist predestination is not a prominent idea nowadays.

On the whole there is a fundamentally different conception of God and Allah - and so between Christians and Muslims (people create their gods in their own image, after all).

God is Love and is loving, that is his central, abiding attribute. A Father, a Son, a Spirit (a Will acting in the world).
The Jews can argue with Yahweh, the Lawgiver who is also Love.
Allah is unfathomable and completely inaccessible. A radically distant and unapproachable Oriental Potentate.

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #549 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 7:29pm Soren wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 5:29pm: God is Love and is loving, that is his central, abiding attribute. Not according to a Calvanist he isn't, which was kind of my point.
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LifeOrDeath

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #550 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:03pm

Stratos wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 7:29pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 5:29pm:

God is Love and is loving, that is his central, abiding attribute.

Not according to a Calvanist he isn't, which was kind of my point.

How so, predestination certainly is not an issue. God knows all. That means he knows what and how you will end up as a result of your decisions. So if you predestined yourself to hell it has nothing to do with God saying you were predestined to hell. He never made you do it.

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There is no evidence of the existence of a muslim,mohammed,or quran until 60 years after mohammed was supposed to have died. Grin

Posting on islam just encourages them and is a waste of time.

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Setanta

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #551 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:46pm

LifeOrDeath wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:03pm:

Stratos wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 7:29pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 5:29pm:

God is Love and is loving, that is his central, abiding attribute.

Not according to a Calvanist he isn't, which was kind of my point.

How so, predestination certainly is not an issue. God knows all. That means he knows what and how you will end up as a result of your decisions. So if you predestined yourself to hell it has nothing to do with God saying you were predestined to hell. He never made you do it.

Huh? If he knows that and he made me that way before I even existed? An All knowing would know this. He would know my disposition, the choices I make, "he made me", is he a bad programmer? Predestiny would mean we are no more than avatars in a game, not under our own control, no free will. He made me to do it.

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« Last Edit: Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:52pm by Setanta »

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Pho Huc

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #552 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 11:30pm

LifeOrDeath wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:03pm:

Stratos wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 7:29pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 5:29pm:

God is Love and is loving, that is his central, abiding attribute.

Not according to a Calvanist he isn't, which was kind of my point.

How so, predestination certainly is not an issue. God knows all. That means he knows what and how you will end up as a result of your decisions. So if you predestined yourself to hell it has nothing to do with God saying you were predestined to hell. He never made you do it.

So our destiny is fixed, but we have free will. righto.

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The law locks up the man who steals the goose from the common, but leaves the greater criminal loose who steals the common from the goose (convict saying)

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Pho Huc

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #553 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 11:35pm

Setanta wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:46pm:

LifeOrDeath wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:03pm:

Stratos wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 7:29pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 5:29pm:

God is Love and is loving, that is his central, abiding attribute.

Not according to a Calvanist he isn't, which was kind of my point.

How so, predestination certainly is not an issue. God knows all. That means he knows what and how you will end up as a result of your decisions. So if you predestined yourself to hell it has nothing to do with God saying you were predestined to hell. He never made you do it.

Huh? If he knows that and he made me that way before I even existed? An All knowing would know this. He would know my disposition, the choices I make, "he made me", is he a bad programmer? Predestiny would mean we are no more than avatars in a game, not under our own control, no free will. He made me to do it.

setanta, Have you heard of the holographic theory of the universe.
if your unfamiliar do a search, its pretty interesting.

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The law locks up the man who steals the goose from the common, but leaves the greater criminal loose who steals the common from the goose (convict saying)

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LifeOrDeath

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #554 - Aug 6^th, 2015 at 11:47pm

Setanta wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:46pm:

LifeOrDeath wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:03pm:

Stratos wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 7:29pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 5:29pm:

God is Love and is loving, that is his central, abiding attribute.

Not according to a Calvanist he isn't, which was kind of my point.

How so, predestination certainly is not an issue. God knows all. That means he knows what and how you will end up as a result of your decisions. So if you predestined yourself to hell it has nothing to do with God saying you were predestined to hell. He never made you do it.

Huh? If he knows that and he made me that way before I even existed? An All knowing would know this. He would know my disposition, the choices I make, "he made me", is he a bad programmer? Predestiny would mean we are no more than avatars in a game, not under our own control, no free will. He made me to do it.

Yes well from a human perspective we have free will. If I can travel faster than light I can know all as a human. Which I can't. Well not yet. If I am a God and know you will fall off the apple cart. I never made you do it. You still did. If I never made you to have the free choice to do that I may as well have made everyone a robot. That would be pointless. Some are predestined to fall into sin because of their bad choices and because sin simply exists. The fact one knows you are predestined to that doesn't mean he should never have given you that choice to make.

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There is no evidence of the existence of a muslim,mohammed,or quran until 60 years after mohammed was supposed to have died. Grin

Posting on islam just encourages them and is a waste of time.

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