Australian Politics Forum - God Does Not Exist. End of Story....

Stratos

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #90 - Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:56pm

Soren wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:44pm:

People report all sorts of scientifically unverifiable experiences.

People say the same thing about being abducted by aliens. Do you believe in those too? How about the hundreds of millions of Muslims who believe in Allah? Or the hundreds of millions of Hindus that believe in Lord Krishna?

Soren wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:44pm:

DO you seriously believe that the way you are today is the result of random permutation every split second since your conception?

Are you talking about evolution here? Because that is not a random process at all.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Raven

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #91 - Feb 15^th, 2015 at 4:28am

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 8:18pm:

Raven wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 7:05pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 2:03pm:

This is what God's Holy Word has to say....

Psalm 14.1

The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.

Psalm 14.2

God looks down from heaven to see if there are any that seek Him.

Hence why in my original post in this topic, I stated that only God can make Himself known to you in a real way... but you have to seek Him and ask Him to.

1 Timothy 2:12

I'm not sure why certain people bring irrelevant and offtopic verses from the Holy Bible into discussions such as this. I find it most irritating and tantamount to trolling.

Lisa, hello. Not trolling simply quoting scripture. If you believe the bible to be the one true word of god then you have no business passing on your knowledge to many of us on this forum. For we are men and you are a woman.

You cannot take issue with this statement if you believe the bible to be the one true word of god, for that is what is written.

If you disagree then you can be classified as a cafeteria Christian, picking and choosing which scripture to follow.

Should this be the case then perhaps you consider the bible not to be the one true word of god.

And if the bible is not the one true word of god then we must take it with a pinch of salt. Something to refer to, but not the be all to end all.

Raven respects your belief, although he finds it misguided. Just as you may find Raven to be misguided.

All he wants is for you to question, not follow blindly lest you end up a sheep. Question those who claim the bible is the be all to end all.

Question those who claim to act in god's name, or those who say "it's 'god's' will" For they have no idea.

If god exists then he is far more advanced then us. You are more advanced then a cockroach, does a cockroach presume to know your will?

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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.

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Soren

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #92 - Feb 15^th, 2015 at 9:49am

Stratos wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:56pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 14^th, 2015 at 10:44pm:

People report all sorts of scientifically unverifiable experiences.

People say the same thing about being abducted by aliens. Do you believe in those too? How about the hundreds of millions of Muslims who believe in Allah? Or the hundreds of millions of Hindus that believe in Lord Krishna?

I am not saying you have to believe the same thing anyone else believes. But people do report experiences and adhere to idea that are completely unbelievable to others.
To say that only those are right who think and believe exactly what you do is self-deluding. No-one can encompass all human experience and all truths.
Not even science because it is concerned only with material aspects of the world and that is not all, or even the mnost important aspect of human life and experience.

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Stratos

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #93 - Feb 15^th, 2015 at 11:36am

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 9:49am:

But people do report experiences and adhere to idea that are completely unbelievable to others.

I agree, and said as much.

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 9:49am:

To say that only those are right who think and believe exactly what you do is self-deluding.

I agree.

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 9:49am:

No-one can encompass all human experience and all truths.

I agree.

Soren, what you are providing are reasons as to why a deity could not be impossible, and I agree. I really don't care if such a being is possible, but whether it is true. Until evidence is provided I will continue to not believe in deities. I would rather admit not knowing the truth than to believe in something that I have no evidence for.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Soren

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #94 - Feb 15^th, 2015 at 12:34pm

I was very impressed with Francis Spufford's book Unapologetic. Here is a vid of him introducing the book which I recommend very much as an illumination of what I think is the core of belief and emotion to many Christians and to which I am very, very sympathetic. The book, as he says, 'expand one's range of sympathies'.

Here is a much longer vid from a series at St Paul's which is a condensation of many of the arguments in the book

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Stratos

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #95 - Feb 15^th, 2015 at 1:59pm

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 12:34pm:

Here is a vid of him introducing the book which I recommend very much as an illumination of what I think is the core of belief and emotion to many Christians and to which I am very, very sympathetic.

I'm listening to it now. It does seem odd that right from the beginning he says that his religion doesn't believe in hell, and discounts his holy scriptures creation myth.

I'll keep listening, thanks for the link Soren.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Stratos

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #96 - Feb 15^th, 2015 at 3:07pm

So he likes the feeling he gets when he's in a cathedral, and has guilt.

He really isn't making any argument, other than to say that because he personally feels it, it is reasonable. Fair enough I guess.

He really isn't describing anything which points towards Christianity however, and a LOT of what he says is contradictory to most of the christian sects.

He freely admits that suffering and a loving God can't be reconciled. In his version, hell doesn't exist and God doesn't need worship.

Oh wow, he's doesn't claim to know if there is life after death?

Soren, what about his arguments did you find convincing, and if you don't mind sharing, what sort of God do you believe in?

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Soren

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #97 - Feb 15^th, 2015 at 8:18pm

Stratos wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 3:07pm:

So he likes the feeling he gets when he's in a cathedral, and has guilt.

He really isn't making any argument, other than to say that because he personally feels it, it is reasonable. Fair enough I guess.

He really isn't describing anything which points towards Christianity however, and a LOT of what he says is contradictory to most of the christian sects.

He freely admits that suffering and a loving God can't be reconciled. In his version, hell doesn't exist and God doesn't need worship.

Oh wow, he's doesn't claim to know if there is life after death?

Soren, what about his arguments did you find convincing, and if you don't mind sharing, what sort of God do you believe in?

The most convincing aspect for me is the ready acknowledgement of the messiness of his position and that it is a personal view.

It means that you too can have a personal view and when it comes to god, a personal view IS the only way to go.

You can swap insights with others but institutionalising personal views is not on the cards. He recalls Christianity to the point where personal experiences were polled,shred, respected.
Peter, the holder of the Keys, denied Christ 3 times. There is plenty of room for idiosyncrasy, insight, creativity, undogmatic desire for human betterment (redemption).

I really like his idea of sin being the human propensity to f Vck things up. This is just so spot on, whether you are a Christian or not, that I think there is no improvement you can make on tjis insight for a couple of decades. It is an idea that needs a few decades to sink in and be digested.

MOST OF ALL I LIKE THE FACT THAT HIS VIEWS AND EXPLANATION DO NOT FIT INTO ANY IDEOLOGY.

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #98 - Feb 15^th, 2015 at 8:24pm I get that Soren, but why do think this points to a deity?
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Soren

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #99 - Feb 15^th, 2015 at 8:41pm

Stratos wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 8:24pm:

I get that Soren, but why do think this points to a deity?

[i]What does it point to[/i if not a deity]?

I think the idea of a deity is stuck in the Olympian ideas of the Greeks. I do not think that the Christian idea of the deity is like that but because Christianity has grown out of Judaism and Greek philosophy, the Greek imagining has taken hold - it has a much richer and much more accessible and acceptable literary tradition behind it.
But in reality the Jewish imagination is much closer to the mark but most Westerners are ignorant of that imaginative landscape. The language of the NT is Greek philosophy (it is a text in Greek) but its imaginative landscape is Hebrew, Jewish, very largely inaccessible and alien to Western, Greco-Latin literature, art, imagination, mental horizons.

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Stratos

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #100 - Feb 15^th, 2015 at 8:55pm

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 8:41pm:

[i]What does it point to[/i if not a deity]?

I don't jump to conclusions about this kind of thing Soren. Like I said, I'd rather be honest and admit I don't know things than believe in a deity I have no proof of.

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 8:18pm:

The most convincing aspect for me is the ready acknowledgement of the messiness of his position and that it is a personal view.

So his lack of evidence and admittance of contradictions in belief is the best evidence that god exists?

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 8:18pm:

It means that you too can have a personal view and when it comes to god, a personal view IS the only way to go.

Again this is a big issue. If there is a deity, presumably with some supernatural or transcendent qualities, why would they only reveal themselves to people personally, especially when in the holy scriptures that we find them in, they are performing miracles left right and center?

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Yadda

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #101 - Feb 18^th, 2015 at 9:26am

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 8:18pm:

Stratos wrote on Feb 15^th, 2015 at 3:07pm:

.....Soren, what about his arguments did you find convincing, and if you don't mind sharing, what sort of God do you believe in?

....It means that you too can have a personal view and when it comes to god, a personal view IS the only way to go.

You can swap insights with others but institutionalising personal views is not on the cards.

He recalls Christianity to the point where personal experiences were polled,shared, respected.

Peter, the holder of the Keys, denied Christ 3 times.

There is plenty of room for idiosyncrasy, insight, creativity, undogmatic desire for human betterment (redemption).

In contrast, Pope Francis disagrees.

Pope Francis says Christians need the Catholic Church.

Google;
Pope Francis "personal relationship with jesus is dangerous"

Quote:

Church is essential for faith; there are no 'free agents,' pope says
Cindy Wooden Catholic News Service | Jun. 25, 2014

Vatican City

Christians are....made....in a community called the church, Pope Francis said.

At his weekly general audience Wednesday, Pope Francis continued his series of audience talks about the church, telling an estimated 33,000 people that there is no such thing as "do-it-yourself" Christians or "free agents" when it comes to faith.

Every Christian, he said, can trace his or her faith back to parents, grandparents, teachers or friends....

http://ncronline.org/blogs/francis-chronicles/church-essential-faith-there-are-n...

Jesus said;

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit:...

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corinthians 6:19
....know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Leviticus 20:24
...I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

Q.
Who is it, that redeems mankind who redeems his servants ?

A.
The one God, the God of Israel.

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

+++

Exodus 25:8
And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

Exodus 29:45
And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.

Exodus 29:46
And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.

Leviticus 11:44
For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy:....

Leviticus 19:2
Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.

Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you....

i.e. Draw nigh to God's righteousness.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Prime Minister for Canyons Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 26906 Canberra Gender:	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #102 - Feb 18^th, 2015 at 9:30am Yawns
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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #103 - Feb 18^th, 2015 at 9:45am Yadda, do you attend a church?
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Prime Minister for Canyons Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 26906 Canberra Gender:	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #104 - Feb 18^th, 2015 at 9:55am I really don't get people who don't believe in evolution.
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