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God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... (Read 84423 times)
vikaryan
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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #225 - Mar 12th, 2015 at 7:53am
 
Is there any case for religion?


What is the connection between religion and evil? That there is a connection is well taken, hardly a surprise, given the extent to which religion invades our lives in so many respects, personal and public. That the connection is complex is equally no surprise. After that, the matter is still open for debate. Some, like Peter van Inwagen (2011), mentioned earlier, will see overall that religion has been a force for good. Others, like the New Atheist Christopher Hitchens (2007), the subtitle of whose book was “How Religion Poisons Everything,” will see overall that religion has been a force for ill. Increasingly, students of human history and nature—represented most recently and most forcefully by the Harvard evolutionary psychologist Steven Pinker (2011)—are starting to conclude that (even taking into account the dreadful events of the twentieth century) there has been a significant decline in violence in human history. Pinker is inclined to find the causes in the rise of modernity—the rule of a democratic law-bound state, the development and application of liberal philosophies about the status and rights of individual humans, and the like. Against Hitchens, he argues that religion has on occasions obviously been a force for good, but certainly not uniformly. “The theory that religion is a force for peace . . . does not fit the facts of history.” Perhaps in the end there is no one answer but a host of answers, depending on the circumstances. Better perhaps is the question whether one sees certain trends that tend to lead to good or ill. When the authority of the priesthood goes unquestioned, perhaps there is more scope for ill. When, as Pinker suggests, the role of women is raised, perhaps more kindly factors prevail. Certainly, one might expect a more balanced approach to sexuality and gender roles. That is the best that can be said, but that can still be a great deal.

http://www.salon.com/2015/03/01/is_there_any_case_for_religion_christianity_islam_atheism_and_my_search_for_balance_and_truth/#
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We fight a holy war against the fat and the corrupt and the sinful and the unbelieving!
 
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vikaryan
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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #226 - Mar 12th, 2015 at 8:04am
 
Quote:
Is there any case for religion? What's good about religion? Does it lead to violence? Are atheists right?

http://www.salon.com/2015/03/01/is_there_any_case_for_religion_christianity_islam_atheism_and_my_search_for_balance_and_truth/#


Here's the answer. Pretty self-explanatory.
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Stratos
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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #227 - Mar 12th, 2015 at 8:41am
 
As much as I agree with the sentiment, that graph is a load of crap.

What kind of axis is "scientific advancement" lol
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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 11:24pm:
Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act
 
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vikaryan
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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #228 - Mar 12th, 2015 at 8:41am
 
Dark age rising


Razan Mohammad Abu-Salha, Yusor Mohammad Abu-Salha and her husband Deah Shaddy Barakat were brutally murdered in their home by Craig Stephen Hicks, in Chapel Hill (North Carolina) on February 10, 2015. The public has condemned their murders as a hate-crime because two of the victims, Razan and Yusor wore hijabs, therefore stood out as Muslims. What’s problematic about this logic is that if a person is wearing Islamic attire and is found to have been murdered by a non-Muslim—how does it automatically constitute a hate crime? By such logic—every person who has ever killed or harmed anybody who happen to practice religion are also committing hate crimes. It’s an abhorrent crime no matter what the motivation was and must be condemned. The premature implication of elements will not serve them justice.

What’s strikingly clear is that those who vehemently call it a “hate crime” are also rejoicing at the fact that an openly atheist man had killed three religious people.

Those who are against the criticism of Islam, the bandwagon of people like Reza Aslan, Mehdi Hasan and CJ Werleman are all having a hallelujah moment—and they have expressed their celebration via social media. Their reaction is nauseating as they have no qualms about using the murder of three innocent people to invalidate the criticism of an ideology.

Mehdi Hasan righteously tweeted if people will now demand to have atheism “reformed”. Where is the book of atheism for such reform? When did atheists call for the murder of theists in the name of a non-belief in a personal god? Where are all the armed atheists committing atheist-jihad and slaughtering tens and thousands of innocent people? Where is the evidence that Hicks was motivated by atheism to commit his crime? Hasan has constantly deflected Muslim extremism as having nothing to do with Islam—yet he now smugly wonders about a reform for atheism over one trigger-happy atheist? Milking the graves of innocent people to fit own narrative is a typical low for every apologist of Islamist violence. Lucky for Hasan—he believes in flying horses to come swoop him away from having to face his fallacious arguments.

And then we have our mighty lion, Reza Aslan—who roars the same slogan as Hasan, that Islamist violence has nothing to do with Islam and makes glaringly asinine statements about the rights of people in Islamic nations—responds to Hicks’ crime by barking at Richard Dawkins, professing his undying disbelief in Dawkins’ condemnation of the attack. Dawkins is not a malicious man who applauds the murder of innocents—in fact, he condemns violence, and that is precisely why he denounces religion. Remember who and what Aslan blamed for the Charlie Hebdo massacre? He certainly had no issue braiding straws and portraying the Kouachi brothers as disenfranchised Muslims who merely reacted in defense when cartoonists satirized their religion. But now—he implicates atheism because the killer was a fan of Dawkins. Aslan is a man who cannot live without a god—as he had gone from being a Muslim to a Christian before converting back to Islam again—so it’s clear why he would find vocal atheists threatening and call them “anti-theists”.

http://nation.com.pk/blogs/15-Feb-2015/dark-age-rising

Hicks also dismissed conspiracy theories about Obama being a “secret Muslim,” and he wasn’t opposed to the Park51 “Ground Zero Mosque,” pointing out that while Christians claimed it represented conquest over the US, churches often represented conquest over Native Americans.

But he also fits the profile for spree killers. He is a gun-rights advocate, owning a dozen firearms.

http://thevermilion.com/?p=3483
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We fight a holy war against the fat and the corrupt and the sinful and the unbelieving!
 
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Raven
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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #229 - Mar 12th, 2015 at 12:59pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 6:45am:
How did they posit the idea or belief that there are more than two states simultaneously? Was there an experiment seeing the two states simultaneously?


No, as far as Raven is aware there is no way to observe two states simultaneously.

However Thomas Young conducted what is called the Double-Slit experiment in the early 19th century which showed light is both a particle and a wave.

For this experiment, a beam of light is aimed at a barrier with two vertical slits. The light passes through the slits and the resulting pattern is recorded on a photographic plate. If one slit is covered, the pattern is what would be expected: a single line of light, aligned with whichever slit is open.

One would expect that if both slits are open, the pattern of light will reflect that fact: two lines of light, aligned with the slits. In fact, however, what happens is that the photographic plate is entirely separated into multiple lines of lightness and darkness in varying degrees. What is being illustrated by this result is that interference is taking place between the waves/particles going through the slits, in what, seemingly, should be two non-crossing trajectories.

What should happen is the beam of light particles or photons are slowed enough to ensure that individual photons are hitting the plate, there should be no interference and the pattern of light would be two lines of light, aligned with the slits.

In fact the resulting pattern still indicates interference, which means that, somehow, the single particles are interfering with themselves.

The conclusion was each photon not only goes through both slits, but simultaneously takes every possible trajectory en route to the target.

In later years scientists have focused on tracking the paths of individual photons. What happens in this case is that the measurement disrupts the photons' trajectories and the results of the experiment become what would be predicted by classical physics: two bright lines on the photographic plate, aligned with the slits in the barrier. Cease the attempt to measure, however, and the pattern will again become multiple lines in varying degrees of lightness and darkness.
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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.
 
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vikaryan
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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #230 - Mar 12th, 2015 at 3:06pm
 
God is an imaginary friend for adults
  Sad Cry
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Soren
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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #231 - Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:14pm
 
Stratos wrote on Mar 11th, 2015 at 11:17pm:
I'm curious as to what you really got out of this Soren?

Some parts were quite interesting from a philosophical point of view, but it seemed ultimately like the god of the gaps argument.

Oh, and are you aware that Holloway has recanted his faith?  While he remains sympathetic to many aspects of religion, it appears he is an atheist now too.

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2009/10/24/exbishop_preaches_a_kinder_atheis...

Sometimes interesting, sometimes dry, thanks for the link.  What exactly about his lectures was convincing for you Soren? 


The largeness of spirit.

Conspicuously absent from much of the 'new' (ie old, tedious, pinched) atheism.The militant certainty that was once the domain of medieval Christianity has been taken over completely by militant atheism. The tub-thumping remains, but the thumpers have exchanged places.

Yes, Holloway wrote a great book about his personal experience, 'Leaving Alexandria'. I have read it and have recommended him as a reviewer of Scruton for that very reason.  His sympathetic view is of the essence. I am far, far more sympathetic towards Christianity than atheism.
Religion, after all, is an emotional matter much more than a logical one. And Christianity is a lot truer emotionally than its negation. Negating Christianity's evident emotional truth, atheism has nothing to offer in its place. 
Atheism is mere opposition  - which is sufficient only for adolescents.i
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Stratos
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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #232 - Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:39pm
 
Soren wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:14pm:
The largeness of spirit.


And why is a deity necessary to understand that?  There are many, MANY people who have that quality from all walks of life.  Can you demonstrate that a belief in god is necessary?

Soren wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:14pm:
The militant certainty that was once the domain of medieval Christianity has been taken over completely by militant atheism.


Soren, multiple times I have told you that many atheists, myself included do not claim there is no god, just that we do not believe in one based on the evidence provided.  I'm curious as to what you are specifically referring to when you say "militant atheists".

Soren wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:14pm:
And Christianity is a lot truer emotionally than its negation.


Why?

Soren wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:14pm:
Atheism is mere opposition  - which is sufficient only for adolescents.i


No it isn't.  Atheism has no inherent qualities attached to it (other than a lack of belief in gods).  While some atheists are directly opposed to many religions (looking at you Satanic Temple), most people I have met are merely skeptical of the evidence provided, and are supporters of freedom of religion, and freedom from religion.  I don't care what you believe, as long as it doesn't have any negative effects.
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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 11:24pm:
Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act
 
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vikaryan
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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #233 - Mar 13th, 2015 at 11:25am
 
When Religion Ran The World They Called It The Dark Ages
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vikaryan
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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #234 - Mar 13th, 2015 at 12:26pm
 
Will Convert For Evidence
Grin

https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/35469748/#35473975
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Amadd
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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #235 - Mar 13th, 2015 at 8:08pm
 
Is there really any difference?


Yeah! Parents are encouraged to buy presents to keep the Santa lie going, whilst the churches sit on their asses and build massive monuments to themselves through usurpation  Angry

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #236 - Mar 14th, 2015 at 6:55am
 
Raven wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 12:59pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 6:45am:
How did they posit the idea or belief that there are more than two states simultaneously? Was there an experiment seeing the two states simultaneously?


No, as far as Raven is aware there is no way to observe two states simultaneously.

However Thomas Young conducted what is called the Double-Slit experiment in the early 19th century which showed light is both a particle and a wave.

For this experiment, a beam of light is aimed at a barrier with two vertical slits. The light passes through the slits and the resulting pattern is recorded on a photographic plate. If one slit is covered, the pattern is what would be expected: a single line of light, aligned with whichever slit is open.

One would expect that if both slits are open, the pattern of light will reflect that fact: two lines of light, aligned with the slits. In fact, however, what happens is that the photographic plate is entirely separated into multiple lines of lightness and darkness in varying degrees. What is being illustrated by this result is that interference is taking place between the waves/particles going through the slits, in what, seemingly, should be two non-crossing trajectories.

What should happen is the beam of light particles or photons are slowed enough to ensure that individual photons are hitting the plate, there should be no interference and the pattern of light would be two lines of light, aligned with the slits.

In fact the resulting pattern still indicates interference, which means that, somehow, the single particles are interfering with themselves.

The conclusion was each photon not only goes through both slits, but simultaneously takes every possible trajectory en route to the target.

In later years scientists have focused on tracking the paths of individual photons. What happens in this case is that the measurement disrupts the photons' trajectories and the results of the experiment become what would be predicted by classical physics: two bright lines on the photographic plate, aligned with the slits in the barrier. Cease the attempt to measure, however, and the pattern will again become multiple lines in varying degrees of lightness and darkness.


You're plagiarising again.
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vikaryan
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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #237 - Mar 14th, 2015 at 7:50am
 
Do you hear them too?


<head>
  Voices
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Soren
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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #238 - Mar 14th, 2015 at 12:42pm
 
Stratos wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:39pm:
Soren wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:14pm:
The largeness of spirit.


And why is a deity necessary to understand that?  There are many, MANY people who have that quality from all walks of life.  Can you demonstrate that a belief in god is necessary?

How does a materialist atheist understand the spirit, an essentially non-materialist concept?


Stratos wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:39pm:
Soren wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:14pm:
The militant certainty that was once the domain of medieval Christianity has been taken over completely by militant atheism.


Soren, multiple times I have told you that many atheists, myself included do not claim there is no god, just that we do not believe in one based on the evidence provided.  I'm curious as to what you are specifically referring to when you say "militant atheists".


You do not claim that there is no god. What DO you claim then? Removing both negatives means that you claim that there is a god but you just don't believe in it because the evidence for its existence is not scientific and so not credible for you.

This little double negative is the Alice through the rabbit hole escape route for you. 

You have no scientific evidence for the personalities of the people around you, no scientific evidence for your interpersonal relationships, emotions, feelings, attitudes, hopes and loves, nor of those around you. yet you lead a life firmly believing in their importance and influence on al your lives.



Stratos wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:39pm:
Soren wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:14pm:
And Christianity is a lot truer emotionally than its negation.


Why?

see above

Stratos wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:39pm:
Soren wrote on Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:14pm:
Atheism is mere opposition  - which is sufficient only for adolescents.i


No it isn't.  Atheism has no inherent qualities attached to it (other than a lack of belief in gods).  While some atheists are directly opposed to many religions (looking at you Satanic Temple), most people I have met are merely skeptical of the evidence provided, and are supporters of freedom of religion, and freedom from religion.  I don't care what you believe, as long as it doesn't have any negative effects.



No it isn't??

Just re-read what you said here - it is all about negatives: lack, opposition, scepticism. A-theism is conceptually about the negation of theism. It is a reaction to what religion posits (god).

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Stratos
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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #239 - Mar 14th, 2015 at 6:24pm
 
Soren wrote on Mar 14th, 2015 at 12:42pm:
How does a materialist atheist understand the spirit


Who says atheists don't believe a concept such as spirit?

Soren wrote on Mar 14th, 2015 at 12:42pm:
You do not claim that there is no god. What DO you claim then?


That based on the evidence provided that I don't believe in any gods.  Think of it like a trial.  It isn't guilty or innocent, it is innocent until proven guilty.  I find god not guilty of existing until some evidence can demonstrate otherwise.

Soren wrote on Mar 14th, 2015 at 12:42pm:
You have no scientific evidence for the personalities of the people around you, no scientific evidence for your interpersonal relationships, emotions, feelings, attitudes, hopes and loves, nor of those around you. yet you lead a life firmly believing in their importance and influence on al your lives.


400 years ago we would be having this conversation about lightning bolts debating the existence of Thor. Just because we don't know something does not mean that a god is responsible.

Soren wrote on Mar 14th, 2015 at 12:42pm:
Just re-read what you said here - it is all about negatives: lack, opposition, scepticism. A-theism is conceptually about the negation of theism. It is a reaction to what religion posits (god).


theist - believes in god
atheist - does not believe in god

you are thinking of a knowledge claim, which these are not, they are beliefs.

gnostic - claims knowledge
agnostic - does not claim knowledge.

I am an agnostic atheist, and I assume that you would call yourself a gnostic theist.

Also no it isn't a negation, it is a rejection of claims that are unproven.  I would be intrigued to see some evidence of gods existence, and if you have some please present it.
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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 11:24pm:
Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act
 
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