Australian Politics Forum - God Does Not Exist. End of Story....

Soren

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #585 - Aug 10^th, 2015 at 11:34am

John_Taverner wrote on Aug 9^th, 2015 at 8:18pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 6^th, 2015 at 10:05am:

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 5^th, 2015 at 9:50pm:

Oh, please correct me then!

What is the mechanism that allows those without faith in Alllah/God/Jehovah to ascend after death?

This is the passage I base my statement on.

John 3:16-18

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

You cannot believe or not believe in something you have never heard of. You have to first know about something before you believe it or not believe it.

That is a heck of a generalisation, and it doesn't make sense. If you don't know about something, you don't believe in it in a passive sense.

Do you believe that there is a sessile terebratulid living in the trap of the wash basin in your bathroom?

The answer would be "no" by default even if you don't know what a terebratulid is, because there is no evidence to believe it.

You don't believe in invisible monsters waiting to trip you up whenever you walk, so you walk without pausing at every step in fear of them. Again, passive disbeliefs of this type are essential for normal living, just as beliefs are.

Reality as we experience it, is at best an approximation.

No.

Believe is a transitive verb of action, not a state, like 'be' or intransitive like walk.

It needs to have an object. Something that you are not aware of cannot be the object of a directed action like believing.

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« Last Edit: Aug 10^th, 2015 at 11:48am by Soren »

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John_Taverner

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #586 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 6:17pm

You're playing games with grammar.

Either you have a belief in something or you don't have a belief in something. It's a logical flip-flop. There, I removed the "believe" verb, and it comes to the same thing.

You don't have to worry about your intransigence any more. I fixed it for you. The verb "to have" is a verb like "to be". It expresses a state, so much so that it is interchangeable with "to be" in many languages. Belief in this case is a noun. An abstract noun in fact, coz it exists exclusively in your head (or it doesn't as the case may be).

Do you have a belief in trip monsters? Yes, no or ... well you can claim the agnostic possessive where you may or may not have a belief in them, but you're not telling - in an intransigent sense of course.

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« Last Edit: Aug 11^th, 2015 at 6:28pm by John_Taverner »

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Pho Huc

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #587 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 9:01pm

Your both right of course. at least from the perspective of my personal spiritual framework,

Its always entertaining when people of faith argue with people of reason. The old immovable object/irresistible force scenario. The fact that each persons view of the universe is equally valid is rarely mentioned. Is this because it is assumed to be common knowledge or because it is rarely considered?

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« Last Edit: Aug 11^th, 2015 at 9:07pm by Pho Huc »

The law locks up the man who steals the goose from the common, but leaves the greater criminal loose who steals the common from the goose (convict saying)

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LifeOrDeath Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1548	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #588 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 9:15pm I find it even more funny when people think they are people of reason because they have no faith in a god. Gee whiz how smart they must be .
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #589 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 9:24pm John_Taverner wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 6:17pm: You're playing games with grammar. Either you have a belief in something or you don't have a belief in something. It's a logical flip-flop. Whatever you have no notion of is not a thing FOR YOU. It is not a thing FOR YOU to believe in or not to believe in.
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Prime Minister for Canyons Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 26906 Canberra Gender:	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #590 - Aug 11^th, 2015 at 10:11pm LifeOrDeath wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 9:15pm: I find it even more funny when people think they are people of reason because they have no faith in a god. Gee whiz how smart they must be . Yes i am.
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John_Taverner

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #591 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 7:52am

Soren wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 9:24pm:

Whatever you have no notion of is not a thing FOR YOU. It is not a thing FOR YOU to believe in or not to believe in.

So you just require a passing notion? You've gone from knowledge to notion.

At what stage does that notion become sufficient to state "I don't believe" ?

Belief is a personal thing. It happens inside your head. Nobody can tell me what anybody else believes in or doesn't believe in.

Maybe if every member of the population had a perfect grasp of logic, you could get your idea to work, but the fact is that probably the majority of people believe in things that they have absolutely no notion of. From the perspective of humanity, your argument breaks down.

A suburban family filling in a Census form:

"Hey Cheryl, what's our religion again?"
"Pentecostal"
"Ah OK. How do you spell that?"
.....

Pho Huc wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 9:01pm:

Your both right of course. at least from the perspective of my personal spiritual framework,

Its always entertaining when people of faith argue with people of reason.

Well we both have reason and we both have faith of one sort or another. I believe in God (of sorts), and I assume from his arguments that Soren has faith in traditional Western conservative concepts. If he actually believed in God, he would take me to task on that observation I just made. I don't believe that he has ever done that.

He's talking about belief as a notional concept. Theists on the other hand, talk about belief from a faith perspective. Belief in God to a Theist means having faith in God or having confidence in God. The question of existence is not a question, and doesn't enter into their definition of belief (in that context).

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Soren

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #592 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 10:41am

John_Taverner wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 7:52am:

Soren wrote on Aug 11^th, 2015 at 9:24pm:

Whatever you have no notion of is not a thing FOR YOU. It is not a thing FOR YOU to believe in or not to believe in.

So you just require a passing notion? You've gone from knowledge to notion.

At what stage does that notion become sufficient to state "I don't believe" ?

Belief is a personal thing. It happens inside your head. Nobody can tell me what anybody else believes in or doesn't believe in.

Belief needs an object (that's what transitive means).

As to knowledge and notion - you can have knowledge to a greater or lesser degree of what actually is and is knowable and you can have a notion of things that are not physical objects but ideas or concepts or attitudes or values.

You cannot believe or disbelieve that you neither know nor have a notion of. It would have been completely impossible for an ancient Greek slave to believe in, say, national socialism or the Westminster system of separation of powers or the general or special theories or relativity or the worth of Shakespeare's sonnets.

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Raven

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #593 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 1:58pm

Soren wrote on Aug 10^th, 2015 at 11:34am:

John_Taverner wrote on Aug 9^th, 2015 at 8:18pm:

[quote author=soren2 link=1423687324/544#544 date=1438819515][quote author=deepideas link=1423687324/529#529 date=1438775413]Oh, please correct me then!

What is the mechanism that allows those without faith in Alllah/God/Jehovah to ascend after death?

This is the passage I base my statement on.

John 3:16-18

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

You cannot believe or not believe in something you have never heard of. You have to first know about something before you believe it or not believe it.

So does that mean that all those people that lived thousands of years before the Nazarene, and those who lived centuries after and had never heard of him, are now living in Heaven?

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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.

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John_Taverner Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2212 Gender:	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #594 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:26pm Raven wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 1:58pm: So does that mean that all those people that lived thousands of years before the Nazarene, and those who lived centuries after and had never heard of him, are now living in Heaven? They're dead.
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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #595 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:34pm John Taverner, may I ask if you believe that God exists?
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John_Taverner Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2212 Gender:	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #596 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:51pm Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:34pm: John Taverner, may I ask if you believe that God exists? Yes, but not the same God as you believe in.
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Pho Huc

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Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story....
Reply #597 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:54pm

John_Taverner wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:26pm:

Raven wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 1:58pm:

So does that mean that all those people that lived thousands of years before the Nazarene, and those who lived centuries after and had never heard of him, are now living in Heaven?

They're dead.

There only dead in our time. time is just a direction.

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The law locks up the man who steals the goose from the common, but leaves the greater criminal loose who steals the common from the goose (convict saying)

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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #598 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 6:00pm John_Taverner wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:51pm: Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 12^th, 2015 at 5:34pm: John Taverner, may I ask if you believe that God exists? Yes, but not the same God as you believe in. Which God do you believe in..and why?
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John_Taverner Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2212 Gender:	Re: God Does Not Exist. End of Story.... Reply #599 - Aug 12^th, 2015 at 7:39pm A God, but not from any established religion. I'll explain in the course of time. I don't believe in the supernatural and I don't believe in life after death.
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