Australian Politics Forum - Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East

freediver

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Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East
Reply #15 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 8:18am

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Yes, but advocating war of any kind by a Pope is dangerous ground for a 21st century Vatican.

Advocating that we do not come to the assistance of ISIS' victims is hardly a good option either. The Vatican does not exactly get kudos for failing to stand up to the Nazis.

This is not the same thing as a crusade.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East
Reply #16 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 9:06am

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 8:18am:

Quote:

Yes, but advocating war of any kind by a Pope is dangerous ground for a 21st century Vatican.

Advocating that we do not come to the assistance of ISIS' victims is hardly a good option either. The Vatican does not exactly get kudos for failing to stand up to the Nazis.

This is not the same thing as a crusade.

The Vatican talking of war is a throwback to medieval and early modern times when the great religious institution of the Vatican had the authority to declare war.

As most significant leading institution of a self-declared religion of peace and love, it is not required of the Vatican to advocate war in the 21st century... Although that doesn't mean silence (i.e. The Great Silence - to which you allude re the Nazis).

A severe and justified criticism of Islamism is that religious leaders are free to advocate war.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49071 At my desk.	Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East Reply #17 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 9:48pm Quote: The Vatican talking of war is a throwback Wrong. This might make sense if there had been no war since medieval times. The Vatican talking of war is the Vatican talking about real problems faced by people today. I have never heard people criticise Islam for the freedoms it allows. Until now.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East
Reply #18 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 9:57pm

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 9:48pm:

Quote:

The Vatican talking of war is a throwback

Wrong. This might make sense if there had been no war since medieval times. The Vatican talking of war is the Vatican talking about real problems faced by people today.

It's not the remit of a religious institution to advocate for war... Most particularly the Vatican.

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 9:48pm:

I have never heard people criticise Islam for the freedoms it allows. Until now.

Are you telling me you've never heard criticism of Islamic leaders claiming Koranic right to make war?

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freediver

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Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East
Reply #19 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 10:08pm

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It's not the remit of a religious institution to advocate for war... Most particularly the Vatican.

Is this a rule you just invented? Can you give us a list of things the Vatican is remitted to discuss? I assume politics is out too?

Quote:

Are you telling me you've never heard criticism of Islamic leaders claiming Koranic right to make war?

Sure. I have just never heard criticism based on their liberty to do so.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East
Reply #20 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 10:19pm

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 10:08pm:

Quote:

It's not the remit of a religious institution to advocate for war... Most particularly the Vatican.

Is this a rule you just invented? Can you give us a list of things the Vatican is remitted to discuss? I assume politics is out too?

Why should the Vatican be free to dabble in the 'magisterium' of the secular? Only by virtue of the 19th century Italian nationalists' compromise (as they stripped the Vatican of political and secular power) can it even claim the status of a crypto-state. This is the 21st century. The Vatican should be stripped of its statehood. Its a 44 hectare Christian church. Let it be that.

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 10:08pm:

Quote:

Are you telling me you've never heard criticism of Islamic leaders claiming Koranic right to make war?

Sure. I have just never heard criticism based on their liberty to do so.

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." Pope Benedict XVI.

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freediver

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Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East
Reply #21 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 8:40am

Quote:

Why should the Vatican be free to dabble in the 'magisterium' of the secular?

You're not a big fan of freedom are you?

Quote:

The Vatican should be stripped of its statehood. Its a 44 hectare Christian church. Let it be that.

Why should you be free to dabble in Italy's magisterium? Or the Vatican's?

Quote:

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." Pope Benedict XVI.

Again, there is no criticism of liberty here. You threw that in yourself. These are criticisms of people's actions, not their liberties.

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it_is_the_light

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Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East
Reply #22 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 9:34am

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2015 at 8:40am:

Quote:

Why should the Vatican be free to dabble in the 'magisterium' of the secular?

You're not a big fan of freedom are you?

Quote:

The Vatican should be stripped of its statehood. Its a 44 hectare Christian church. Let it be that.

Why should you be free to dabble in Italy's magisterium? Or the Vatican's?

Quote:

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." Pope Benedict XVI.

Again, there is no criticism of liberty here. You threw that in yourself. These are criticisms of people's actions, not their liberties.

many blessings freediver

are you a vatican apologist here ?

are you in a conundrum concerning your freemasonic oaths

you have taken and overlapping vows of fealty ..

and as such

you are merely repeating masonic doctrine and agenda ..

this is exposed with

so very much love

so be at peace

namaste

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ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : ) ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯

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it_is_the_light

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Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East
Reply #23 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 9:40am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 10:19pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 10:08pm:

Quote:

It's not the remit of a religious institution to advocate for war... Most particularly the Vatican.

Is this a rule you just invented? Can you give us a list of things the Vatican is remitted to discuss? I assume politics is out too?

Why should the Vatican be free to dabble in the 'magisterium' of the secular? Only by virtue of the 19th century Italian nationalists' compromise (as they stripped the Vatican of political and secular power) can it even claim the status of a crypto-state. This is the 21st century. The Vatican should be stripped of its statehood. Its a 44 hectare Christian church. Let it be that.

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 10:08pm:

Quote:

Are you telling me you've never heard criticism of Islamic leaders claiming Koranic right to make war?

Sure. I have just never heard criticism based on their liberty to do so.

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." Pope Benedict XVI.

many blessings and quite rich from this peadophile ratzinger

forced to resign amid scandal of leaks concerning peadophiliac priests and techniques used

to hide their dark masonic doctrine and servants of moloch and the looting of the world to line their coffers

yet Lo,

these servants of moloch are exposed and banished from this world

in the name of the divine and sacred christ light

and so be it for it is now in these days of deliverance

ye shall know as much as the christ light continues

to descend and expand within the all of creation

upon this world and be it so

namaste

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ॐ May Much LOVE and CHRISTS LIGHT be upon and within us all.... namasté ▲ - : ) ╰დ╮ॐ╭დ╯

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East
Reply #24 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 10:06am

There is a disturbing trend towards pre-Vatican II habits within the Vatican...

The shock (and guilt) of WW2 and the Vatican's role in antisemitism before WW2 and it 'Great Silence' during, is starting to abate.

I believe we can expect more advocation for war from the Vatican over the next few years, thereby binding the faithful, like their medieval ancestors, to 'Holy War'.

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Julius Abbott

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Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East
Reply #25 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 7:24pm

it_is_the_light wrote on Mar 20^th, 2015 at 9:40am:

many blessings and quite rich from this peadophile ratzinger

and the culture he delved in.

Another one bites the dust...for a few months anyway.

Quote:

Jesuit priest Stanislaus Hogan jailed over child pornography found in Saint Ignatius' College quarters

Updated about 3 hours ago

An Adelaide Jesuit priest and teacher found with more than 1,500 pornographic images of boys has been jailed for more than two years.

Stanislaus Hogan, 70, was found with books, magazines and videos of young and teenage boys, in his private quarters at Saint Ignatius' College in Adelaide's eastern suburbs in August 2013.

He was on the college staff at the time of his arrest.

Hogan told the Adelaide District Court he used some of the books and videos as a way to help understand...himself.

Judge Peter Brebner told Hogan the production of child pornography meant children were sexually exploited and his actions had helped create a market for such material...

...Hogan...will be able to seek parole in 10 months.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-20/st-ignatius-jesuit-priest-stan-hogan-jailed-child-porn/6336244

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Soren

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Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East
Reply #26 - Mar 21^st, 2015 at 9:15am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 20^th, 2015 at 10:06am:

There is a disturbing trend towards pre-Vatican II habits within the Vatican...

The shock (and guilt) of WW2 and the Vatican's role in antisemitism before WW2 and it 'Great Silence' during, is starting to abate.

I believe we can expect more advocation for war from the Vatican over the next few years, thereby binding the faithful, like their medieval ancestors, to 'Holy War'.

The Vatican's ambassador in Geneva has said the use of force will be necessary to protect minority groups from Islamic State aggression if a political solution cannot be achieved.
In an interview with U.S. Catholic website Crux, Archbishop Silvano Tomasi said the jihadists, who have declared a cross-border caliphate after seizing land in eastern Syria and northern Iraq, were committing "genocide" and must be stopped.
"What's needed is a coordinated and well-thought-out coalition to do everything possible to achieve a political settlement without violence," Crux quoted Tomasi as saying on Friday, "but if that's not possible, then the use of force will be necessary."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/11473055/...

What you are saying is that if Christians, the Vatican in particular, cannot reason with Muslim aggressors then the Muslim aggressors should be left alone to continue.
ANd you are saying this from what you imagine to be a moral high horse.
But it isn't. It's just stupid.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East
Reply #27 - Mar 21^st, 2015 at 11:30am

John XXIII realised after WW2 that the Catholic Church's attitude towards Jews prior to the early 30s, helped sustain centuries of virulent European antisemitism that ultimately resulted in the Holocaust.

When the Vatican states were seized by the Italian Nationalists in the 19th century, the troops were greeted by the population within these states as liberators from Papal oppression.

I do not believe the religious institution that is the Vatican should have a temporal role at all in the 21st century. Its power should lie solely in its moral high ground.

This does not mean silence - (i.e. The silent stand it took with Nazi Germany in exchange for keeping its property and land in Germany and having its neutrality respected).

The Vatican's advocating for war could easily have the blowback effect of inciting Christian extremists.

Whenever the Vatican has taken a position away from its supreme religious ideals, it's always at the cost of its moral authority.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East
Reply #28 - Mar 23^rd, 2015 at 2:22pm

Perhaps it is the growing realisation by the Vatican and many others that unless Islamism pulls back, a confrontation with the West and/or Christianity created by Islamism will become necessary.

It is not Christians who are running around and advocating killing people in Christian countries just for being non-Muslim.

“If a madman were to come into this room with a stick in his hand, no doubt we should pity the state of his mind; but our primary consideration would be to take care of ourselves. We should knock him down first, and pity him afterwards.”

- Samuel Johnson (1709-1784), British author.

If Christianity is a religion of love and peace... it must needs defend itself first. Such is the choice being thrust upon it.

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Soren

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Re: Vatican Endorses Crusade In Middle East
Reply #29 - Mar 23^rd, 2015 at 4:32pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 21^st, 2015 at 11:30am:

I do not believe the religious institution that is the Vatican should have a temporal role at all in the 21st century. Its power should lie solely in its moral high ground.

... which you do not accept.

So they should not shup up but remain completely neutered and let Christians be killed by the more motivated and less fastidious Muslims who are not called upon to display any kind of moral ground, high or low, because they are not to be expected to have one.

Good one. Your own idea? Or is this just your riff on the soft bigotry of low expectations from Muslims while blame is sheeted home to Christianity no matter who is killing them.
As the Germans will never forgive the Jews for the Holocaust, Christians and Jews and Hindus and Buddhists are never forgiven for being victimised by Islam.

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