Australian Politics Forum - British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons

polite_gandalf

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Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #30 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 6:06am

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 6:50pm:

OK now I get it. Society is to blame.

Partly it is - yes.

You are not making any useful points here - you are basically just rehashing what everyone agrees with anyway - terrorists are bad and they should be stopped.

Unless you want to go down the sprint path of persecuting and banning islam from our society (which I don't think do), then you need to come up with solutions that don't involve alienation and dividing society. A collaborative approach along the lines of what FD 2007 used to advocate.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #31 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 8:24am

Quote:

You are not making any useful points here - you are basically just rehashing what everyone agrees with anyway - terrorists are bad and they should be stopped.

How? By blaming society?

Quote:

Unless you want to go down the sprint path of persecuting and banning islam from our society (which I don't think do),

And yet you label me an extremist. Why is that Gandalf? Were you desperate to get my attention?

Quote:

then you need to come up with solutions that don't involve alienation and dividing society

How about uniting in support of freedom of speech? Oops can't do that, because according to you it is ludicrous to expect Muslims to support freedom of speech. How should we appease them Gandalf?

Quote:

A collaborative approach along the lines of what FD 2007 used to advocate.

How is what I advocated in 2007 different from what I advocate now, other than acknowledging the genuine (but previously unrecognised by me) difficulty in getting Muslims to support freedom of speech?

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Yadda

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Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #32 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 9:53am

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 20^th, 2015 at 6:06am:

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 6:50pm:

OK now I get it. Society is to blame.

Partly it is - yes.

You are not making any useful points here - you are basically just rehashing what everyone agrees with anyway -

terrorists are bad and they should be stopped.

Unless you want to

go down the sprint path of persecuting and banning islam from our society (which I don't think do),

then you need to come up with solutions that don't involve alienation and dividing society. A collaborative approach along the lines of what FD 2007 used to advocate.

gandalf,

Yes,

Our complacent ['she'll be right'] society is to blame.

For tolerating proponents of evil ISLAM among us.

'terrorists moslems are bad and they should be stopped.'

YES, SO, WE SHOULD BAN ISLAM, IN AUSTRALIA.

!!!!

PROPOSITION;

Wherever in the world there are moslems,

the presence of moslems is always directly the cause of conflict and violence with others.

THE RELIGION OF PEACE

http://thereligionofpeace.com/

Moslems always cause conflicts and violence with others, through their own nature, ...of a culture of lying and deceit [towards others].

And when conflict and violence with others inevitably becomes 'hot', moslems promote a grievance mentality [primarily fostered within their own community], which then ['internally'] justifies 'lawful' ISLAMIC violence against the disbelievers.

i.e.
In the mind of the moslem;

"Only the moslems are the good and rightly guided people."
"Everyone else [i.e. everyone who rejects the authority of the local imam/ISLAM] is a person working in the cause of evil."
"It is the disbelievers which are the cause of the evil circumstances and the suffering of innocent moslems."
"So moslems are virtuous whenever they oppose [i.e. fight against] disbelievers...."

....and so moslems are virtuous, whenever moslems choose to use violence, to spread the influence and the authority of ISLAM [and in doing so, they fight against the 'oppression' and 'persecution' of 'innocent moslems' !!].

"....those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil"
- Koran

So a local moslem community ['internally'] is always able to portray the members of their own community as 'the good [innocent] persons', in any 'conflict equation'.

Yadda said.....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1426238178/10#10
Quote:

PROPOSITION;
ISLAM itself, directly causes 'radicalisation' [in individuals], in that it can be demonstrated that ISLAM [within the body of its religious texts] inculcates and causes a grievance mentality [in individuals] and an encouragement to religious violence all in individuals who become enthralled by its [ISLAM's] arguments.

But note well;
During the Radio National discussion, there is never an exploration of the possibility, that it could be the influence of ISLAM, which may be a factor in causing 'radicalisation' [in individuals].
i.e. by ISLAM instilling a greivence mentality [in individuals] and an encouragement to religious violence [in individuals].

THE PROPOSITION WHICH MAINSTREAM ISLAMIC DOCTRINE 'BROADCASTS';
Moslems are innocent.
Those who reject ISLAM are guilty persons, are evil persons, and, they deserve to be put to death.
Whenever fighting on behalf of ISLAM's/Allah's cause, moslems are engaged in virtuous acts [of violence].

.

IN EVERY INSTANCE, WHEN MOSLEMS COME INTO IN CONFLICT WITH OTHERS [i.e. in conflict with the 'oppressors'], the moslem argument is; .....that those who are the cause of the conflict, are always those who are not moslems --------- >

'AGGRESSION IS SOMETHING ONLY INFIDELS DO'

Quote:

"......[resorting] to force to disseminate Islam is not war (harb), a word that is used only to describe the use of force by non-Muslims. Islamic wars are not hurub (the plural of harb) but rather futuhat, acts of "opening" the world to Islam and expressing Islamic jihad. Relations between dar al-Islam, the home of peace, and dar al-harb, the world of unbelievers, nevertheless take place in a state of war, according to the Qur'an and to the authoritative commentaries of Islamic jurists. Unbelievers who stand in the way, CREATING OBSTACLES FOR THE DA'WA, ARE BLAMED FOR THIS STATE OF WAR, for the da'wa can be pursued peacefully if others submit to it.

IN OTHER WORDS, THOSE WHO RESIST ISLAM CAUSE WARS and are responsible for them.

.....Aggression is something only infidels do.

.....it is not seen as aggression or war when Muslims attack non-Muslims.

On the contrary, it is seen as aggression when non-Muslims resist the Islamization of their lands and thus "place obstacles in the way" of the spread of Islam.

They are defying the will of Allah.......subjugation to Islam alone can bring peace.....

......[To the ISLAMIST mind, 'aggression' is...] When non-Muslims do anything to preserve their culture and resist the Islamization of their country."

"ISLAM SEEKS PEACE - Oh really!"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1258072652/1#1

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #33 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 10:08am

In the mind of the moslem;

"Only the moslems are the good and rightly guided people."

"Everyone else [i.e. everyone who rejects the authority of the local imam/ISLAM] is a person working in the cause of evil."

"It is the disbelievers which are the cause of the evil circumstances and the suffering of innocent moslems."

"So moslems are virtuous whenever they oppose [i.e. fight against] disbelievers...."

In the mind of the moslem;

"....those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil"
- Koran

In the mind of the moslem;

Peace summarises everything in Islam

.....and it is the condition of NOT BEING A MOSLEM, which is the primary cause of all human conflict in the world --------- >

Quote:

"Peace summarises everything in Islam, because it means

submitting your will to God,

so you acquire peace through it," he said.

"When I'm following its [i.e. ISLAM's] teachings,

I know that my own actions are in line with what my creator wants,

and hence I am at peace with myself, [with] my community and the rest of the world."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-19/darwins-muslim-community-tackles-discrimin...

EXAMPLE - of moslems promoting ISLAM 'peace' in Australia.....

------------- >

IMAGE....

"Mr Yunus has been encouraging peaceful community bridging since starting his post as Darwin's Islamic leader in 2014."

Mr Yunus is a moslem.

Mr Yunus is a follower of ISLAM.

.

IMO, ISLAM 'creates' a mental pathology [a 'sickness'] in the psyche of those human beings who choose to embrace it.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1425861095/32#32
Yadda said....
Quote:

All moslems, imo, have a damaged [destroyed!!!] psyche.

And [predominantly] it isn't the freedoms and laws of Australian society, nor, the influence of 'discriminatory' Australian's, who are responsible for damaging the psyche of moslems [i.e. FOR 'RADICALISING' MOSLEMS].

It is ISLAM, which is doing that!

.

Yadda said....
Quote:

ISLAMIC LAW teaches - EVERY MOSLEM - that murdering those who are not moslems [i.e. those who reject ISLAM], is a lawful act.

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of [i.e. for] those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."
Koran 3.85

"And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193

ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06

ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."

THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

- DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #34 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 10:09am

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2015 at 8:24am:

And yet you label me an extremist. Why is that Gandalf? Were you desperate to get my attention?

Goodness FD, you seem very touchy about this. I explained it to you in the other thread - you are an extremist because of your prejudicial views about muslims which completely clouds your better judgment on just about every other topic. Things like saying the misuse of state funds by a muslim school definitely means funding terrorists. Or Labelling the misreporting about a 'good news' muslim story by western (non-muslim) media as muslims "doing what they do" to cover up the threat Islam poses to civilization. You are also an extremist, if you really want to know, with your constant "hey look over there" apologism for blatant lies perpetuated in a vicious campaign to smear islam.

And as discussed previously, you are also an extremist in your views about freedom - for example you disagreeing with mainstream public opinion that having legal measures in place to protect against discrimination and prejudice against minorities is important.

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2015 at 8:24am:

How about uniting in support of freedom of speech?

Great idea FD! Lets start with calling out George Brandis for pleading that "people have a right to be bigots" on the one hand, while proudly proclaiming that holocaust denial should remain unlawful as a form of racial discrimination on the other. What do you think?

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2015 at 8:24am:

ccording to you it is ludicrous to expect Muslims to support freedom of speech.

Really? Where did I say that FD?

Quite the opposite in fact. Again, do you think there are problems with demanding muslims embrace the ridicule of their religion while another religion remains a protected species?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #35 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 10:35am

FD is an extremist only in relation to the Muselman. In all other areas, FD is intelligent, well-read and considered. He doesn't jump to conclusions, he listens, and he makes excellent arguments.

When it comes to the Muselman, however, well. If you just read FD's posts on his one obsession, you'd think he was a certifiable nutter.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons Reply #36 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 10:55am precisely.
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freediver

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Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #37 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 12:46pm

Quote:

Goodness FD, you seem very touchy about this. I explained it to you in the other thread - you are an extremist because of your prejudicial views about muslims which completely clouds your better judgment on just about every other topic. Things like saying the misuse of state funds by a muslim school definitely means funding terrorists. Or Labelling the misreporting about a 'good news' muslim story by western (non-muslim) media as muslims "doing what they do" to cover up the threat Islam poses to civilization.

Except that I did not actually say either of those things Gandalf. When you add in words or change them, you change the meaning, and it is no longer something I actually said.

Quote:

You are also an extremist, if you really want to know, with your constant "hey look over there" apologism for blatant lies perpetuated in a vicious campaign to smear islam.

Are you accusing me of deflecting? Like in the other thread where you kept bringing up past "lies" from Soren that he had already conceded (repeatedly, due to your constant deflecting) were wrong, while you avoided your own lies that you posted in that thread?

Quote:

And as discussed previously, you are also an extremist in your views about freedom - for example you disagreeing with mainstream public opinion that having legal measures in place to protect against discrimination and prejudice against minorities is important.

That's a pretty low bar for extremism Gandalf. By that measure more than half of our politicians are extremists.

Quote:

Great idea FD! Lets start with calling out George Brandis for pleading that "people have a right to be bigots" on the one hand, while proudly proclaiming that holocaust denial should remain unlawful as a form of racial discrimination on the other. What do you think?

I think it is hollow rhetoric from Muslims unless they are also prepared to defend people's right to mock Muhammed. Muslims must start with their own opposition to freedom of speech, particularly when their fellow co-religionists are achieving censorship extra-judiciously.

Quote:

Really? Where did I say that FD?

You made this claim plenty of times, and tried to insist that it is the same as Muslims actually wanting Muhamemd to be mocked. You did not seem to comprehend that a person might support someone's right to say something while at the same time disagreeing with it. This is pretty much the basis of freedom of speech, but it is an alien concept to you and other Muslims.

Quote:

Quite the opposite in fact. Again, do you think there are problems with demanding muslims embrace the ridicule of their religion while another religion remains a protected species?

No. I think there are problems when Muslims look for excuses not to embrace freedom, as if every other freedom must exist before they can stop killing people. Judaism is not beyond mockery and cops it far worse than Islam.

Quote:

When it comes to the Muselman, however, well. If you just read FD's posts on his one obsession, you'd think he was a certifiable nutter.

In other words, Karnal agrees with me on other topics, but not this one, though he steadfastly avoids meaningful participation in any of the discussions.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #38 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 2:42pm

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2015 at 12:46pm:

Except that I did not actually say either of those things Gandalf.

Oh still confused are we? Here I'll remind you again:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1405760005/13

Thread title: "muslm 'donations' go to terrorists"

FD's first response: "So do government funds given to Muslim-run private schools in Australia."

And just so we're still not confused - thats you saying *VERY* clearly that government funds given to muslim-run private schools go to terrorists. There is literally nothing else you could be referring to. You confirm the claim again and again in your subsequent posts in that thread.

I guess its up for debate whether lying about these claims after making them constitutes extremism - but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2015 at 12:46pm:

I think it is hollow rhetoric from Muslims unless they are also prepared to defend people's right to mock Muhammed. Muslims must start with their own opposition to freedom of speech, particularly when their fellow co-religionists are achieving censorship extra-judiciously.

You just made an appeal for "uniting in support of freedom of speech" - now you are saying its actually not important. If the rest of society are not prepared to support free speech, why on earth would you expect the muslims to?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95870 Gender:	Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons Reply #39 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 4:46pm FD, have you participated in any discussions that aren’t about the Muselman? I haven’t read one for over a year. You wrote an excellent book review about human evolution a while back. That was masterful. I must have missed your non-Musel posts of late. I look forward to more.
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freediver

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Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #40 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 6:18pm

Quote:

Oh still confused are we?

You are confused Gandalf. What you quote, and what you attribute to me, are two different things. That is why it is such a convoluted effort on your part to "quote" me saying what you insist I said.

Quote:

You just made an appeal for "uniting in support of freedom of speech" - now you are saying its actually not important.

It is important. Muslims uniting in support of freedom of speech, except for the right to mock Muhammed, is pretty meaningless.

Quote:

If the rest of society are not prepared to support free speech, why on earth would you expect the muslims to?

Everyone places caveats on freedom of speech Gandalf. Muslims such as yourself try to turn it into an absurdly simplistic black or white issue so that they can always find an excuse for their complete rejection of freedom of speech by deflecting the way you do.

Quote:

FD, have you participated in any discussions that aren’t about the Muselman? I haven’t read one for over a year.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence Karnal. Have you tried looking?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95870 Gender:	Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons Reply #41 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 9:34pm No, FD, I just follow my nose. I look forward to reading your sane posts. Thanks for pointing out their existence. If that’s what you did.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons Reply #42 - Mar 20^th, 2015 at 10:08pm polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 20^th, 2015 at 10:55am: precisely. So Muslims are not hot for the caliphate, sharia and all other crazy Islamic shite any more? When did the Pauline turn to reason happen? Not on the road to Damascus through ISIL lines, shurely?!/!
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polite_gandalf

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Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #43 - Mar 21^st, 2015 at 8:05am

freediver wrote on Mar 20^th, 2015 at 6:18pm:

Everyone places caveats on freedom of speech Gandalf.

Like not wanting prophet mocking allowed?

Holocaust denial and arresting people for saying bad things about jews is not a "caveat" - its straight out rejection of free speech. You have done a pretty good job of being a spineless apologist for jewish exceptionalism - which in itself is not necessarily a bad thing - I agree with you that jews are a special case. But your hypocricy is blinding - you have previously argued vigorously that the best way to protect vulnerable minorities from prejudice and discrimination is to have *MORE* free speech, not less. Those were your very words FD. You give anyone who proposes this for the muslims the full treatment - but when it comes to jews, the "more free speech" antidote suddenly doesn't apply.

Are you now saying that if discrimination and prejudice is really really bad - maybe free speech is not such a great solution?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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SweetLambo

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Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #44 - Mar 21^st, 2015 at 12:01pm

I thinks its funny they get all upset with cartoons over a prophet that never even existed.

A cursory look at history shows the mohammed prophet myth was invented 60 years after his pretend so called birth by a caliph. Such nonsense by such backward thick people should in no way be accepted by normal society. Only people with mentally deficient condition would kill others over a cartoon about someone that never even existed.

They don't even have the mental capacity to actually research why they believe what they believe. Sit down and shut up is all they understand and if you leave we will kill you, and the over whelming response from the horde is "Yes sir may I please have another".

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The quran was not written by allah unless allah has no knowledge of science and historical facts. No quran or prophet mohammed existed until 60 years after mohammed's death.

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