Australian Politics Forum - British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons

SweetLambo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1271	Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons Reply #75 - Mar 31^st, 2015 at 9:36pm Ah the old ad hommus accusation.
Back to top	The quran was not written by allah unless allah has no knowledge of science and historical facts. No quran or prophet mohammed existed until 60 years after mohammed's death. IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #76 - Apr 1^st, 2015 at 11:32am

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2015 at 6:05pm:

I am not simply dismissing it. I am pointing out the absurdity of it. Holocaust denial laws are the excuse, not the motivation. It does not make sense for a Muslim who is prepared to commit mass murder in order to silence those who mock Muhammed to also be genuinely motivated by a desire to achieve freedom of speech by ending the holocaust denial laws. If he builds a narrative of the west attacking Islam, that narrative will be built on the west attacking Islam directly, for example with cartoons mocking Islam's idiocy. It will not be built on far subtler hypocrisy. The west would still be attacking Islam in the same way without those holocaust denial laws.

Continually missing the point.

No one is making excuses for the terrorists, yet I know that you will keep that stale strawman going to dodge the real issue. Its about claiming the moral authority to be a warrior for free speech when defending attacks against one religious group, while at the same time insisting that another religious group remain off limits. When this happens your moral authority disappears. Thats obviously doesn't mean you can no longer say killing cartoonists is wrong - but you are no longer able to make it a crusade about free speech with any credibility. And if you do, then don't be surprised when people view this grandstanding with the highest degree of cynicism - and start to object to it (as the original story in this thread is about).

Make it an issue of killing people = wrong, don't make it an issue of freedom when it makes you such a hypocrite. Thats the take home message if you are really interested in getting the muslim community on board.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

|dev|null

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 4434
Gender: male

Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #77 - Apr 1^st, 2015 at 12:02pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 1^st, 2015 at 11:32am:

freediver wrote on Mar 31^st, 2015 at 6:05pm:

I am not simply dismissing it. I am pointing out the absurdity of it. Holocaust denial laws are the excuse, not the motivation. It does not make sense for a Muslim who is prepared to commit mass murder in order to silence those who mock Muhammed to also be genuinely motivated by a desire to achieve freedom of speech by ending the holocaust denial laws. If he builds a narrative of the west attacking Islam, that narrative will be built on the west attacking Islam directly, for example with cartoons mocking Islam's idiocy. It will not be built on far subtler hypocrisy. The west would still be attacking Islam in the same way without those holocaust denial laws.

Continually missing the point.

No one is making excuses for the terrorists, yet I know that you will keep that stale strawman going to dodge the real issue. Its about claiming the moral authority to be a warrior for free speech when defending attacks against one religious group, while at the same time insisting that another religious group remain off limits. When this happens your moral authority disappears. Thats obviously doesn't mean you can no longer say killing cartoonists is wrong - but you are no longer able to make it a crusade about free speech with any credibility. And if you do, then don't be surprised when people view this grandstanding with the highest degree of cynicism - and start to object to it (as the original story in this thread is about).

Make it an issue of killing people = wrong, don't make it an issue of freedom when it makes you such a hypocrite. Thats the take home message if you are really interested in getting the muslim community on board.

FD feels, I suspect that anything that does not outright and continually condemn the Terrorists is making excuses and apologising for them, G. Typical FD viewpoint! Grin

Back to top

"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49081
At my desk.

Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #78 - Apr 2^nd, 2015 at 9:58pm

Quote:

No one is making excuses for the terrorists

You are saying that if we got rid of the holocaust denial laws, they would stop it. If that were true, we would be pretty stupid for not doing so. But the reality is that Muslims slaughter cartoonists who mock Muhammed because they draw cartoons mocking Muhammed, not because they build a victimhood complex around holocaust denial laws. If you suggest we must address the holocaust denial laws first, you might as well be excusing terrorism, because you are attempting to facilitate it.

Quote:

while at the same time insisting that another religious group remain off limits

Where have I insisted that Gandalf?

Quote:

When this happens your moral authority disappears.

Fine. Let me know when it happens.

Quote:

Thats obviously doesn't mean you can no longer say killing cartoonists is wrong - but you are no longer able to make it a crusade about free speech with any credibility. And if you do, then don't be surprised when people view this grandstanding with the highest degree of cynicism - and start to object to it (as the original story in this thread is about).

And on and on you go. Let's not let the truth get in the way of a good story eh Gandalf?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #79 - Apr 3^rd, 2015 at 7:09am

freediver wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2015 at 9:58pm:

You are saying that if we got rid of the holocaust denial laws they would stop it.

Wrong. No wonder you can't comprehend the point.

freediver wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2015 at 9:58pm:

Where have I insisted that Gandalf?

You didn't. Believe it or not this is not about you. Get back to me when you can actually understand what is being debated here.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Apr 3^rd, 2015 at 7:37am by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49081
At my desk.

Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #80 - Apr 3^rd, 2015 at 8:40am

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2015 at 1:02pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2015 at 4:06pm:

Do you remember how we got into this - by you, a Muslim, suggesting that holocaust denial laws should be dealt with "first". Attacks on freedom of speech by Muslims will always be bottom of the list

No, the two are not mutually exclusive. Addressing the first directly addresses the second.

Is this you insisting that getting rid of the holocaust denial laws will directly address Islamic terrorism?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 20^th, 2015 at 6:06am:

freediver wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 6:50pm:

OK now I get it. Society is to blame.

Partly it is - yes.

Is this you not trying to shift the blame?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons Reply #81 - Apr 3^rd, 2015 at 9:08am freediver wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2015 at 8:40am: Is this you insisting that getting rid of the holocaust denial laws will directly address Islamic terrorism? Have you worked out what the thread is about yet FD?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49081 At my desk.	Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons Reply #82 - Apr 3^rd, 2015 at 10:02am Muslims attacking freedom of speech? Again.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons Reply #83 - Apr 3^rd, 2015 at 10:43am I guess not. The thread is about muslims peacefully protesting against Charlie Hebdo. At some point you turned it into a thread about terrorists killing cartoonists - and you've been running with that ever since. I guess it hasn't dawned on you yet.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95911 Gender:	Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons Reply #84 - Apr 4^th, 2015 at 4:56pm freediver wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2015 at 10:02am: Muslims attacking freedom of speech? Again. Muslims taking away the Freeeedom of decent white people everywhere. Typical.
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49081
At my desk.

Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #85 - Apr 8^th, 2015 at 8:41am

Quote:

The thread is about muslims peacefully protesting against Charlie Hebdo.

...shortly after many of the cartoonists were murdered by Muslims. Do you think this is in even poorer taste than turning up to the Jewish solidarity protest after Jews were murdered by Muslims and trying to turn it into an Islamophobia protest?

Haven't you been trying to make the thread about blaming holocaust denial laws for Muslims attacking freedom of speech? Does it in any way affect my criticism of your argument if they are murdering cartoonists or trying to imprison them? Either way, they are motivated by their opposition to freedom of speech, and whining about holocaust denial laws is the excuse, not the motivation. Do you see any of the protestors saying they would give up and go home if they were allowed to freely deny the holocaust? Or is this more of a useful idiot/western armchair psychiatrist type argument?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #86 - Apr 8^th, 2015 at 11:10am

freediver wrote on Apr 8^th, 2015 at 8:41am:

...shortly after many of the cartoonists were murdered by Muslims. Do you think this is in even poorer taste than turning up to the Jewish solidarity protest after Jews were murdered by Muslims and trying to turn it into an Islamophobia protest?

I'm pretty sure it all hinges on whether or not they were standing in a line - what do you think?

Besides, the jewish solidarity protest was a story that was entirely based on lies - remember? Still, I'm sure we can modify that slightly into 'the story was based on lies - except the bits that incriminated muslims'. That should do it.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons
Reply #87 - Apr 8^th, 2015 at 11:26am

freediver wrote on Apr 8^th, 2015 at 8:41am:

Haven't you been trying to make the thread about blaming holocaust denial laws for Muslims attacking freedom of speech? Does it in any way affect my criticism of your argument if they are murdering cartoonists or trying to imprison them?

Criticising prophet mocking is not the same as calling on those who criticise to be imprisoned - or even calling for freedoms to be banned.

from the OP:

Quote:

Perpetual mistakes by extremists, either by cold-blooded killers or uncivilised expressionists, cannot be the way forward for a civilised society.

The peace-loving majority of people must become vociferous in promoting global civility and responsible debate. At this time of heightened tension and emotion, it is crucial that both sides show restraint to prevent further incidents of this nature occurring.’

Whats interesting about this story is that despite the Daily Fail's best efforts to insinuate otherwise, these protestors seemed to go out of their way to avoid any calls for any freedoms to be curtailed.

I wouldn't accuse these people of being anti-freedom just as I wouldn't accuse the reclaim Australia mob of the same - despite both sides expressing a disaproval of a particular kind of freedom.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49081 At my desk.	Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons Reply #88 - Apr 8^th, 2015 at 6:06pm Would this be a reasonable way of paraphrasing their demands? Islam's "more opinionated" critics must self censor until Muslims stop committing acts of terrorism in an effort to silence them. Freedom of speech is incompatible with civilisation.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: British muslims protest Charlie Hebdo cartoons Reply #89 - Apr 8^th, 2015 at 6:58pm sure - as soon as you can show me where anyone demanded anyone "self censor".
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged