Australian Politics Forum - UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria.

Lord Herbert

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UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria.
Mar 19^th, 2015 at 2:16pm

So do I.

I've nearly finished the history of the Kokoda Track campaign - and it is infinitely more complex, interesting, and revealing of Australia's military capabilities and profile than the Gallipoli fiasco that featured way more Brits than it did Australians (same as with the fall of Singapore).

The only reason the Kokoda campaign is so studiously ignored is that the top brass were utter imbeciles and should have been court martialled as War Criminals for their mishandling of their own troops.

Blamey and MacArthur should have been hanged at the end of the war. Their rampant idiocy cost 1000's of needless deaths among the Australian and American troops.

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Redmond Neck Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 21628 ACT Gender:	Re: UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria. Reply #1 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 2:27pm Must be nearing ANZAC Day, Herb has put up another anti ANZAC Post
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 84780 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria. Reply #2 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 5:45pm Herb's right about Tubby and Macca - no idea and no attempt to even find out the conditions in NG, but ready to blame the troops for slowness etc when they were up to their necks in Japanese and jungles... Ever read the fiasco at the end of the Track? Blamey should never have been the boss.. ever...
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Lord Herbert

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Re: UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria.
Reply #3 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:10pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 5:45pm:

Herb's right about Tubby and Macca - no idea and no attempt to even find out the conditions in NG, but ready to blame the troops for slowness etc when they were up to their necks in Japanese and jungles...

Ever read the fiasco at the end of the Track?

Blamey should never have been the boss.. ever...

Paul Ham's excellent book on the Kokoda track saga and the fighting at Milne Bay, Gona, and Buna opened my eyes as never before.

Every page was packed with revelations that were a shocker to me.

It should be compulsive reading for every school kid in Australia.

The lower ranking officers who were in the combat zones were brilliant and courageous, but time and again they were very badly let down by grubby characters like Thomas Blamey and Douglas MacArthur whose main preoccupation were their egos and their hopes for a post-war political career.

An amazing book to read. I highly recommend it.

Also some great insights into the mindset of the Japanese foe.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 84780 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria. Reply #4 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:13pm Me old man was at Milne Bay, then transferred to 3rd Aerial Resupply Company, and flew over the Track many times... also did the 187th Airborne drop at Nadzab... Buna and Gona were shockers and a waste of too many good men.
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innocentbystander.

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Re: UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria.
Reply #5 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:29pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:10pm:

It should be compulsive reading for every school kid in Australia.

Every school kid in Australia today is currently being taught that they are white colonialist scum that needs to be wiped out and erased by brown people, and preferably brown people that want sharia law, if todays education department was around when the japs were pouring down the kokoda trail they would have urged surrender.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria.
Reply #6 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:35pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:13pm:

Me old man was at Milne Bay, then transferred to 3rd Aerial Resupply Company, and flew over the Track many times... also did the 187th Airborne drop at Nadzab...

Buna and Gona were shockers and a waste of too many good men.

He was at Milne Bay? Jesus Christ. The Japanese atrocities committed there by the Japanese Special Naval Support mob were particularly horrific.

And the anopheles mosquitoes and other types of mosquitoes created wholesale malaria, dengue fever, dysentery, etc.

Never mind the fighting - just the diseases that quickly appeared among the men in those dank forests, swamps and misty mountain valleys was enough of a trial.

An interesting little footnote was the number of Australian survivors of the Papua campaign who said they couldn't have endured it all as well as they did without their government-issue cigarettes. It was their only 'little luxury' and personal comfort in those hellish climes facing a suicidally fanatical Japanese fighting force.

What particularly pissed me off were the mindless orders from headquarters that the troops must charge over open ground at well-defended Japanese bunkers where machine gun fire cut them down like daisies in a field. And this order was repeated again and again with hundreds dying for absolutely no strategic gain.

Those back in the Port Moresby and Brisbane HQs who gave these orders should have been executed after the war.

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« Last Edit: Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:42pm by Lord Herbert »

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Svengali

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Re: UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria.
Reply #7 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:59pm

innocentbystander. wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:29pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:10pm:

It should be compulsive reading for every school kid in Australia.

Every school kid in Australia today is currently being taught that they are white colonialist scum that needs to be wiped out and erased by brown people, and preferably brown people that want sharia law, if todays education department was around when the japs were pouring down the kokoda trail they would have urged surrender.

Closet pom guilt complex?

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Happy Lucky

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Re: UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria.
Reply #8 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 8:02pm

Svengali wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:59pm:

innocentbystander. wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:29pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:10pm:

It should be compulsive reading for every school kid in Australia.

Every school kid in Australia today is currently being taught that they are white colonialist scum that needs to be wiped out and erased by brown people, and preferably brown people that want sharia law, if todays education department was around when the japs were pouring down the kokoda trail they would have urged surrender.

Closet pom guilt complex?

Did any of your family fight for Australia during the wars Svengali?

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The_Barnacle

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Re: UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria.
Reply #9 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 8:17pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 2:16pm:

So do I.

I've nearly finished the history of the Kokoda Track campaign - and it is infinitely more complex, interesting, and revealing of Australia's military capabilities and profile than the Gallipoli fiasco .

Which shows your complete ignorance about why Gallipoli is revered by many Australians. It has nothing to do with how complex interesting or revealing it is.

Having said that I do believe Gallipoli is overrated. It has more to do with us Australians being so insecure that we desperately want to find some sort of national identity. It is perhaps fitting that it is an act of fighting someone elses war. Something we have been doing since we were colonised.

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The Right Wing only believe in free speech when they agree with what is being said.

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Happy Lucky

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Re: UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria.
Reply #10 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 8:22pm

The_Barnacle wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 8:17pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 2:16pm:

So do I.

I've nearly finished the history of the Kokoda Track campaign - and it is infinitely more complex, interesting, and revealing of Australia's military capabilities and profile than the Gallipoli fiasco .

Which shows your complete ignorance about why Gallipoli is revered by many Australians. It has nothing to do with how complex interesting or revealing it is.

Having said that I do believe Gallipoli is overrated. It has more to do with us Australians being so insecure that we desperately want to find some sort of national identity. It is perhaps fitting that it is an act of fighting someone elses war. Something we have been doing since we were colonised.

For me it's a reminder to never fight under the British again. Landing our men in front of a series of crumbling cliffs and valleys was just stupid. Stupid British plans during WW1 and Singapore during WW2 killed a lot of good men. I suppose to many people it was our first instance of standing on our own 2 feet as a nation.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria.
Reply #11 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 8:54pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:35pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:13pm:

Me old man was at Milne Bay, then transferred to 3rd Aerial Resupply Company, and flew over the Track many times... also did the 187th Airborne drop at Nadzab...

Buna and Gona were shockers and a waste of too many good men.

He was at Milne Bay? Jesus Christ. The Japanese atrocities committed there by the Japanese Special Naval Support mob were particularly horrific.

And the anopheles mosquitoes and other types of mosquitoes created wholesale malaria, dengue fever, dysentery, etc.

Never mind the fighting - just the diseases that quickly appeared among the men in those dank forests, swamps and misty mountain valleys was enough of a trial.

An interesting little footnote was the number of Australian survivors of the Papua campaign who said they couldn't have endured it all as well as they did without their government-issue cigarettes. It was their only 'little luxury' and personal comfort in those hellish climes facing a suicidally fanatical Japanese fighting force.

What particularly pissed me off were the mindless orders from headquarters that the troops must charge over open ground at well-defended Japanese bunkers where machine gun fire cut them down like daisies in a field. And this order was repeated again and again with hundreds dying for absolutely no strategic gain.

Those back in the Port Moresby and Brisbane HQs who gave these orders should have been executed after the war.

Yes - some nasty stuff went on at Milne Bay and elsewhere.. he was in over a hundred bombing raids.

That stupid order to charge etc cost a lot of lives for nothing... stupid... idiots back in Brisbane believed that somehow white men were superior to Japanese and also to bullets apparently.

Someone once said that whenever the higher-ups are talking about taking an objective at the point of the bayonet, the troops knew they were in deep trouble.

Bloody stupid.. criminally so.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Lionel Edriess

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Re: UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria.
Reply #12 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 9:16pm

Svengali wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:59pm:

innocentbystander. wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:29pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:10pm:

It should be compulsive reading for every school kid in Australia.

Every school kid in Australia today is currently being taught that they are white colonialist scum that needs to be wiped out and erased by brown people, and preferably brown people that want sharia law, if todays education department was around when the japs were pouring down the kokoda trail they would have urged surrender.

Closet pom guilt complex?

Do you have anything of value to add to this thread?

Or are you somehow satisfied by interjecting with some irrelevant commentary that further cements your position as a waste of space and an oxygen thief with a limited knowledge of anything worthwhile?

Why don't you tell us about the 39th Battalion or your own link to the contents of the OP?

As an apprentice Svengali, you're failing your practicals.

Just sayin'.

Cool

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Toughen up, Australia!

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Svengali

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Re: UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria.
Reply #13 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 9:31pm

Lionel Edriess wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 9:16pm:

Svengali wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:59pm:

innocentbystander. wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:29pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 19^th, 2015 at 7:10pm:

It should be compulsive reading for every school kid in Australia.

Every school kid in Australia today is currently being taught that they are white colonialist scum that needs to be wiped out and erased by brown people, and preferably brown people that want sharia law, if todays education department was around when the japs were pouring down the kokoda trail they would have urged surrender.

Closet pom guilt complex?

Do you have anything of value to add to this thread?

Or are you somehow satisfied by interjecting with some irrelevant commentary that further cements your position as a waste of space and an oxygen thief with a limited knowledge of anything worthwhile?

Why don't you tell us about the 39th Battalion or your own link to the contents of the OP?

As an apprentice Svengali, you're failing your practicals.

Just sayin'.

Cool

You have very long toes and obviously are sensitive to space and oxygen competitors.

Here is a fact for you.

Poms are puzzled about Australia's focus on Gallipoli which was a disaster. Poms claim they lost six times as many people as closet poms did at Gallipoli.

The closest most Ozpolitic closet pom denizens have come to a fight is shaping up and mouthing off at their local bar.

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We first fought the heathens in the name of religion, then Communism, and now in the name of drugs and terrorism. Our excuses for global domination always change.
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miketrees

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Re: UK historian questions Gallipoli hysteria.
Reply #14 - Mar 19^th, 2015 at 10:10pm

That stupid order to charge etc cost a lot of lives for nothing... stupid... idiots back in Brisbane believed that somehow white men were superior to Japanese

I just spent some time searching for a link, but could not find it.

I am pretty sure an Australian politician described the Japanese defeat of the Chinese as "A triumph of monkeys over apes"

I may have the storey a bit crooked, but pretty sure it summed up our nations lack of respect for the sophistication of the Japanese war machine.

Underestimating your enemy is never a good idea.

As is overestimating them, apparently if the Allies had held out for a bit longer in Singapore the Japanese would have had to retreat.
( I read that at the Changi War Museum on a recent visit)

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