Australian Politics Forum - Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam?

ImSpartacus2

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Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam?
Reply #15 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 8:41am

Swagman wrote on Apr 15^th, 2015 at 8:18am:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 15^th, 2015 at 7:24am:

Saddam knew what to do -

there was law and order when he was there.

Yes...his laws, and his orders.... Cheesy

Just like our Ochlocracy here today. Grin

Who should make the decisions Swag. You don't want a democracy to decide and you don't want a dictator. So whose left. Who do you want to make the decisions?

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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam? Reply #16 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 9:10am Bobby. wrote on Apr 15^th, 2015 at 7:24am: Saddam knew what to do - there was law and order when he was there. Bobby...please tell me you're seriously joking.
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Lisa Jones

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Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam?
Reply #17 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 9:16am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Apr 14^th, 2015 at 9:06pm:

red baron wrote on Apr 14^th, 2015 at 5:46pm:

You see this is exactly how the script went in Vietnam, sending in "non combatant advisors" Only it didn't turn out that way.

Now we see an increase with a further 300 "advisors" sent to Iraq.

Tell you what Tony, do our troops a favour, bring them all back. Our presence in Iraq won't make an ounce of difference to the major sh.tfight that is taking place in the middle east.

Don't make the same mistake that we made in Vietnam. I previously held a different point of view but looking at the international stage and what ISIS is doing, I can only see this turning out badly for our boys.

When the guy who cooks your dinner or cuts your hair, is likely to be the one who cuts your throat in the middle of the night, then you as a solider are between a rock and a hard place.

Let's get them the hell out of there!!!!!!

First the advisors, then some air to give them support on the ground, then some protection for the air assets, then a major commitment of ground troops when that proves insufficient, then the adoption of an aggressive policy of patrolling etc to create a defence in depth and protect the larger perimeter... and so it goes...

Ends up in multi-division sweeps and pitched battles when the locals can't control their own fight....

Cordon it all off, declare it a free fire zone to start on xxth Veeblezwep, and then bomb it flat....

Always amazed me that Uncle Sam would send troops into them hills to find the NVA so the bombers could flatten the valley they were in... why not flatten it first and send in the troops to pick up the pieces? Why recon to pinpoint them when you're going to flatten the joint anyway?

Hubby and I keep asking the same questions. He reckons the Cold War, Russia, potential ramifications...yadda yadda yadda...got in the way.

( NB we're both modern and ancient history minded in our household...all our kids are too )

Would be nice if we had a History forum around here. You 2 would be excellent Mods.

Just a thought....

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freediver

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Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam?
Reply #18 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 9:26am

red baron wrote on Apr 14^th, 2015 at 5:46pm:

You see this is exactly how the script went in Vietnam, sending in "non combatant advisors" Only it didn't turn out that way.

Now we see an increase with a further 300 "advisors" sent to Iraq.

Tell you what Tony, do our troops a favour, bring them all back. Our presence in Iraq won't make an ounce of difference to the major sh.tfight that is taking place in the middle east.

Don't make the same mistake that we made in Vietnam. I previously held a different point of view but looking at the international stage and what ISIS is doing, I can only see this turning out badly for our boys.

When the guy who cooks your dinner or cuts your hair, is likely to be the one who cuts your throat in the middle of the night, then you as a solider are between a rock and a hard place.

Let's get them the hell out of there!!!!!!

They say history repeats. We should let ISIS have free reign for a while longer. What could go wrong?

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red baron

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Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam?
Reply #19 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 4:04pm

I hear what you're saying Freediver. This one is a bloody hard one. Do you really think we could stamp out ISIS in the Middle East?

This is a religion and its gathering pace. But what is being chucked at them is a token effort at best.

Training the Iraqi soldiers to resist ISI is laughable. When ISIS turns up, the Iraqis will drop their weapons and turn like rabbits. No amount of training is going to turn those useless articles into soldiers, to start with they need ticker, an element missing from the Iraqi Army.

If I felt that our soldiers would make a difference I could be swayed, but just like training the South Vietnamese Army it is destined to failure, why put our boys lives on the line for that result? All those Aussie lives lost in South Vietnam and for what? For nothing..the Commies won. I served in that conflict and I remember the history of it only too well.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38833 Gender:	Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam? Reply #20 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 4:07pm Indeed they did, but freediver wants not to heed that history lesson.
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innocentbystander.

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Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam?
Reply #21 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 4:15pm

I watched an interview with an Iraqi commander that was fighting ISIS a few weeks ago and he basically said that the US could get rid of these ISIS clowns in a week if they wanted to.

The muslim is not really interested in fighting, they are not really interested in much at all, they just like to sit around and pray, commit the odd atrocity and rape women, they are certainly no viet cong, the real answer to pacifying the middle east is to introduce centrelinks on every street corner and pass out free hashish for all.

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|dev|null

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Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam?
Reply #22 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 5:20pm

red baron wrote on Apr 15^th, 2015 at 4:04pm:

I hear what you're saying Freediver. This one is a bloody hard one. Do you really think we could stamp out ISIS in the Middle East?

Perhaps. Tends to hang on the question of how much blood you can tolerate being on your hands.

Quote:

This is a religion and its gathering pace. But what is being chucked at them is a token effort at best.

Training the Iraqi soldiers to resist ISI is laughable. When ISIS turns up, the Iraqis will drop their weapons and turn like rabbits. No amount of training is going to turn those useless articles into soldiers, to start with they need ticker, an element missing from the Iraqi Army.

Except for the units which retook Mosul the other day. Forgotten their efforts? Then you have the Kurds, with their units which took Tikrit. Loads of hard slogging in both battles - as bad as Stalingrad, I've read.

Quote:

If I felt that our soldiers would make a difference I could be swayed, but just like training the South Vietnamese Army it is destined to failure, why put our boys lives on the line for that result? All those Aussie lives lost in South Vietnam and for what? For nothing..the Commies won. I served in that conflict and I remember the history of it only too well.

Vietnam was a failure. No reason why Iraq has to be. The problem in both cases is getting the locals to care sufficiently to support the government. As long as the West keeps it's soldiers out of the battle and just supports the Iraqis, the better off they'll be at beating ISIS. Grin

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freediver

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Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam?
Reply #23 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 5:32pm

ISIS are a bunch of highly motivated idiots. Motivation will only take you so far. I concede that the Iraqi army lacks even motivation, but they are still getting the job done, along with a few Kurdish and Iranian militias.

We learnt the lesson of Vietnam. That's how we managed to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan relatively unscathed. If we had to, we could wipe the lot of them out in a few days. You can't hide in the desert like you can in a jungle. But I am happy to let other Muslims take care of it if it gives everyone warm and fuzzies. It is time for the Iraqis to own their democracy.

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Aussie

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Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam?
Reply #24 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 5:41pm

freediver wrote on Apr 15^th, 2015 at 5:32pm:

ISIS are a bunch of highly motivated idiots. Motivation will only take you so far. I concede that the Iraqi army lacks even motivation, but they are still getting the job done, along with a few Kurdish and Iranian militias.

We learnt the lesson of Vietnam. That's how we managed to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan relatively unscathed. If we had to, we could wipe the lot of them out in a few days. You can't hide in the desert like you can in a jungle. But I am happy to let other Muslims take care of it if it gives everyone warm and fuzzies. It is time for the Iraqis to own their democracy.

So.....all that wiffle waffle to say ....... Arabia for the Arabs.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49347 At my desk.	Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam? Reply #25 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 5:47pm We could always declare terra nullis. No sign of intelligent life. But that would be racist.
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aquascoot Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 34975 Gender:	Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam? Reply #26 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 5:54pm The jungle is not the desert Red
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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38833 Gender:	Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam? Reply #27 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 6:05pm freediver wrote on Apr 15^th, 2015 at 5:47pm: We could always declare terra nullis. No sign of intelligent life. But that would be racist. We could also keep our nose out of the business of other people in their Country, especially Arabia where they have been beating the shite out of each other for centuries.
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106326 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam? Reply #28 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 6:15pm Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 15^th, 2015 at 9:10am: Bobby. wrote on Apr 15^th, 2015 at 7:24am: Saddam knew what to do - there was law and order when he was there. Bobby...please tell me you're seriously joking. I'm serious - there were no terrorists in Iraq when Saddam was in power. ( except him )
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106326 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Iraq - Australia's new Vietnam? Reply #29 - Apr 15^th, 2015 at 6:16pm Swagman wrote on Apr 15^th, 2015 at 8:18am: Bobby. wrote on Apr 15^th, 2015 at 7:24am: Saddam knew what to do - there was law and order when he was there. Yes...his laws, and his orders.... Just like our Ochlocracy here today. That's right Saddam's laws.
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