Australian Politics Forum - Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water

Bam Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21905 Gender:	Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water Reply #15 - Apr 29^th, 2015 at 12:05am
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Bam

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Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water
Reply #16 - Apr 29^th, 2015 at 12:18am

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2015 at 8:03pm:

Pretty impressive technology. Taking CO2 out of the environment to create a clean renewable fuel is killing more than 2 birds with one stone.

It wouldn't take CO₂ out of the environment because the fuel must eventually be burnt and this will return the CO₂ to the atmosphere. It's actually a zero-sum process - carbon neutral.

mothra wrote on Apr 28^th, 2015 at 8:03pm:

Let's see how this develops when the big oil companies put their oar in the water.

There are two kinds of oil companies: those that recognise that they are energy companies, and companies that eventually must go out of business.

The smart oil companies would embrace this technology. Economies of scale could see the fuel be produced very cheaply, especially with a vertically-integrated production model where the company produces its own electricity for the fuel plant.

Perhaps it could be possible to produce the fuel economically on a smaller scale - a mining company that produces its own diesel, or even a farm - any venture that has access to sufficient land.

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Bam Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21905 Gender:	Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water Reply #17 - Apr 29^th, 2015 at 10:01am miketrees wrote on Apr 28^th, 2015 at 9:51pm: Trees/ plants have been doing this for millions of years. Indeed they have, but much of the energy they capture they use for their metabolic processes. We only get what's left. This new technology cuts out the middleman.
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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water
Reply #18 - Apr 29^th, 2015 at 10:07am

Bam wrote on Apr 29^th, 2015 at 12:18am:

The smart oil companies would embrace this technology. Economies of scale could see the fuel be produced very cheaply, especially with a vertically-integrated production model where the company produces its own electricity for the fuel plant.

Exactly, a smart company will say OK, oils dying off so lets diversify into this, we still sell it as fuel, so we're still going to make money off it.

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water Reply #19 - Apr 29^th, 2015 at 10:52am Quote: Prof. Dr. Johanna Wanka N-O .... W-A-Y
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Wolseley Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1453 Sydney Gender:	Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water Reply #20 - Apr 29^th, 2015 at 11:07am polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 29^th, 2015 at 10:52am: Quote: Prof. Dr. Johanna Wanka N-O .... W-A-Y That was my initial reaction, but it really is her name. It mustn't have the same meaning in German. http://www.bmbf.de/en/555.php
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longweekend58

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Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water
Reply #21 - Apr 29^th, 2015 at 12:57pm

Bam wrote on Apr 28^th, 2015 at 7:59pm:

This is very good news if the production can be scaled up successfully. It would put a ceiling on fuel prices and also give us a fuel source in the post-oil world.

I have thought that biodiesel from crops would be feasible, but if synthetic diesel can be created directly from carbon dioxide and water, that is even better.

if it is economical and scalable then it is in fact revolutionary. It would transform the petrol and car industry over the next 10-20 years. My only concern is the 'Ive heard this before' routine. BMWs hydrogen cars work and can be run on any easily modern car and yet it hasn't happened. Scalability is apparently a problem and the fact this requires huge amount of electricity (don't fall for the renewable energy aspect) might limit it as well.

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longweekend58

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Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water
Reply #22 - Apr 29^th, 2015 at 12:59pm

Bam wrote on Apr 28^th, 2015 at 8:31pm:

I especially like this bit:
Quote:

Production of Audi e‑diesel involves various steps: First, water heated up to form steam is broken down into hydrogen and oxygen by means of high-temperature electrolysis. This process, involving a temperature in excess of 800 degrees Celsius, is more efficient than conventional techniques because of heat recovery, for example. Another special feature of high-temperature electrolysis is that it can be used dynamically, to stabilize the grid when production of green power peaks.

This means the "baseload renewable" discussion is less important. It is an industrial process that can be varied according to the availability of sustainable energy, producing more when there's plenty of energy and scaling back when sustainable energy production is down.

It's more accurate though to state that it is not the diesel output that would vary, but the hydrogen feedstock used in that process. I expect that a well-designed plant would produce diesel continuously, with the hydrogen feedstock being replenished when spare energy is available and depleted when it is not.

it all sounds nice but it sounds like a technology for sometime in the future. it uses a LOT of power and a lot of water and probably a lot of dollars as well. And I would be more convinced when it can make more than enough fuel for TWO cars per day.

But just the same, it is impressive.

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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water
Reply #23 - Apr 29^th, 2015 at 4:47pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 29^th, 2015 at 12:59pm:

Bam wrote on Apr 28^th, 2015 at 8:31pm:

I especially like this bit:
Quote:

Production of Audi e‑diesel involves various steps: First, water heated up to form steam is broken down into hydrogen and oxygen by means of high-temperature electrolysis. This process, involving a temperature in excess of 800 degrees Celsius, is more efficient than conventional techniques because of heat recovery, for example. Another special feature of high-temperature electrolysis is that it can be used dynamically, to stabilize the grid when production of green power peaks.

This means the "baseload renewable" discussion is less important. It is an industrial process that can be varied according to the availability of sustainable energy, producing more when there's plenty of energy and scaling back when sustainable energy production is down.

It's more accurate though to state that it is not the diesel output that would vary, but the hydrogen feedstock used in that process. I expect that a well-designed plant would produce diesel continuously, with the hydrogen feedstock being replenished when spare energy is available and depleted when it is not.

it all sounds nice but it sounds like a technology for sometime in the future. it uses a LOT of power and a lot of water and probably a lot of dollars as well. And I would be more convinced when it can make more than enough fuel for TWO cars per day.

But just the same, it is impressive.

I agree, but you have to start somewhere. I'm sure a similar thing was said about petrol.

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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miketrees Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6490 Gender:	Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water Reply #24 - Apr 29^th, 2015 at 7:23pm Its probably still cheaper to let the experts (plants) do the conversion.
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Bam

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Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water
Reply #25 - Apr 29^th, 2015 at 10:09pm

miketrees wrote on Apr 29^th, 2015 at 7:23pm:

Its probably still cheaper to let the experts (plants) do the conversion.

I'm pretty sure that if this were the case we would already be doing it.

Quote:

Audi and Sunfire ... anticipate that once production is scaled up, the e-diesel will sell to the public for between 1 and 1.50 Euros per litre, dependent on the cost of renewable electricity.

With traditional diesel currently on the market for upwards of 1.50 Euros per litre in Germany, this would make the fuel extremely competitive...

Biodiesel from biomass requires that the plants be grown, harvested, processed, refined and converted to diesel. It's a relatively complex process and where would the plants be grown?

With this synthetic process, there is no large amount of waste byproduct that has to be disposed of.

The main problems with the process that I can see are a source of cheap energy (that need not be continuous) and a source of pure water. These are not insurmountable problems.

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miketrees

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Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water
Reply #26 - Apr 30^th, 2015 at 2:02pm

Hi Bam

I wish some one would offer me squillions to do some research on the selection of algae for carbon capture.

While working in the mines I noticed that where ever we built a pond algae would soon colonise, didn't seem to mater how saline the water was.

There is probably a huge spread of genetic variability in our wild algaes

if we could harvest them, and select the traits we were looking for, perhaps we could utilise saline ponds (which we have in excess) to soak up some CO2 from the exhausts of our power plants.
Perhaps the algae could be harvested via pumps and filters, the hydrocarbons removed from them and the waste returned to the saline ponds as a nutrient for more algae.

I see this as one possible stopgap measure until we can move a bit further away from our carbon economy.

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issuevoter Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9200 The Great State of Mind Gender:	Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water Reply #27 - Apr 30^th, 2015 at 5:41pm Mike, check this out. Algae fuel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel
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John_Taverner

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Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water
Reply #28 - Apr 30^th, 2015 at 5:54pm

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Apr 28^th, 2015 at 10:25pm:

This sounds a bit like a hoax to me. Bam, how reliable is the source for this report?

The report is reliable and is widely reported. The technology has been around for years. It's amazing that they can produce it so cheaply though.

This is the most encouraging news I've seen for a long time.

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rabbitoh08 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1528 Gender:	Re: Audi makes diesel from CO2 and water Reply #29 - Apr 30^th, 2015 at 6:01pm Not to diss what looks like very exciting technology if feasible, but did anyone else giggle when they read this?: Wolseley wrote on Apr 28^th, 2015 at 11:21pm: Minister of Research, Prof. Dr. Johanna Wanka...
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