Australian Politics Forum - So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?

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Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?
Reply #30 - May 21^st, 2015 at 11:11am

moses wrote on May 20^th, 2015 at 4:58pm:

Karnal wrote: Quote:

Easy. You emphasise prayer, charity, fasting, pilgrimage, spiritual striving and hospitality to strangers.

You then put the history into perspective and trust that wisdom comes from spiritual practice, not dogma - humility, not books. You refuse to deify prophets, who are only human, but seek the Almighty in all.

But what am I saying? Millions of Muslims are doing this already.

Problem solved, Moses. Happy?

No, you are advocating a fairy tale of a supposed future islam, which would be the antithesis of what islam is today.

You didn't address the problem E.G.: the pure evil contained in commands, teachings and verses of islam. (what do muslims do with it?)

Ignore them? Rather like how Christians and Jews ignore the teachings of their respective religions... Grin

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Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?
Reply #31 - May 21^st, 2015 at 11:14am

Baronvonrort wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 10:59am:

Brian Ross wrote on May 18^th, 2015 at 8:28pm:

The question is does Islam need a Martin Luther?

They have one in Caliph Baghdadi.

Doesn't seem to be doing all that well, outside of the Sunni sect. Not really a unifying person, is the old al-Bagdadi, now is he? Cheesy

Quote:

Islam has been reforming,it's getting more fundamental.

Some Muslims are, some Muslims, aren't Baron. Not all Muslims are the same! Cheesy

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moses

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Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?
Reply #32 - May 21^st, 2015 at 3:16pm

Karnal wrote: Quote:

I just told you. I’m only telling you what Muslims have told me, you know.

Do you really think I could make something like that up?

I’m not that good at taqiyya.

It appears everyone wants to dance around the one immutable fact in the islamic reformation scenario.

The scale of sheer evil contained in the sacred commands, teachings and verses of islam.

This evil is the root cause of all past and present islamic atrocities. What are muslims going to do with it?

Unless muslims can address this issue, talk of reform is just meaningless talk. Excuses put up by apologists are again just meaningless excuses. islamic barbarity will continue it's unabated run.

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Karnal

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Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?
Reply #33 - May 21^st, 2015 at 3:47pm

moses wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 3:16pm:

Karnal wrote: Quote:

I just told you. I’m only telling you what Muslims have told me, you know.

Do you really think I could make something like that up?

I’m not that good at taqiyya.

It appears everyone wants to dance around the one immutable fact in the islamic reformation scenario.

The scale of sheer evil contained in the sacred commands, teachings and verses of islam.

This evil is the root cause of all past and present islamic atrocities. What are muslims going to do with it?

Unless muslims can address this issue, talk of reform is just meaningless talk. Excuses put up by apologists are again just meaningless excuses. islamic barbarity will continue it's unabated run.

But they have. We have one of the Muselmen on this very board who has addressed just that.

If you recall, his take is that many of the aHadith were written by Arab warlords to reflect their own interests. The aHadith are not sacred commands, and nor should they be seen as such.

And yes, he has an Islamic school of thought to back it up. It's not just G's own ramblings, which I'm sure you'll agree, are articulate, intelligent, reflective and insightful.

There is not a "sheer scale of evil" in the Quran - not that I'm aware of, anyway. There are battles and executions and threats of executions. It was written during a time of war. It's purpose, described within, was to create peace. Much of the Quran is about just this - you just don't quote these bits. Just as you refuse to discuss all the executions and torture in the Old Testament.

I'm not sure how this could be a meaningless excuse when Muslims themselves believe it. I wouldn't be writing this if I thought they were fibbing. The few Muslim crazies I have seen on TV couldn't possibly fib about something like this. For them, everything's war and death and kuffars and eternal paradise. It's a bizarre take on life. Such fundamentalist dogma is indeed a form of death cult. It has all the elements of a cult - the exclusivity, the obsession with enemies, the willingness to kill and die for a cause, the obsession with rules, the hierarchical social structure, the belief that only your beliefs are the true path and everybody else is living in sin.

And none of the Muslims I've met believe it. Not one.

The question I have for you, Moses, is whether your own beliefs contain such dogma. Your black and white language, your inflexible viewpoint, your fixed belief in good and evil - all reflect this.

Sometimes, as your own prophet said, it's worth examining the beam in your own eye before you point to the speck in someone else's.

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bludger Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 314 Gender:	Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther? Reply #34 - May 21^st, 2015 at 9:40pm To all religions and school counsellors, middle finger, raspberry.
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\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther? Reply #35 - May 22^nd, 2015 at 11:22am bludger wrote on May 21^st, 2015 at 9:40pm: To all religions and school counsellors, middle finger, raspberry. Thanks Matty, thats really fair and even handed of you.
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moses

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Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?
Reply #36 - May 22^nd, 2015 at 3:55pm

Karnal wrote: Quote:

But they have. We have one of the Muselmen on this very board who has addressed just that.

If you recall, his take is that many of the aHadith were written by Arab warlords to reflect their own interests. The aHadith are not sacred commands, and nor should they be seen as such.

And yes, he has an Islamic school of thought to back it up. It's not just G's own ramblings, which I'm sure you'll agree, are articulate, intelligent, reflective and insightful.

It's no good going on about the hadi'th only, depraved evilness permeates the entire spectrum of islam E.G.:the deeds and teachings of muhammad, the supposed commands of allah, the verses in the qur'an and the hadi'th, the supposedly sacred doctrine of islam.

Quote:

There is not a "sheer scale of evil" in the Quran - not that I'm aware of, anyway. There are battles and executions and threats of executions. It was written during a time of war. It's purpose, described within, was to create peace. Much of the Quran is about just this - you just don't quote these bits. Just as you refuse to discuss all the executions and torture in the Old Testament.

Rubbish it's handbook of depravity giving divine sanction to muslims to rape, torture and murder their fellow man in the name of islam.

Create peace how? By mass slaughter, slavery, excessive subjugation and taxation, forced submission and conversion to islam?

Quote:

I'm not sure how this could be a meaningless excuse when Muslims themselves believe it. I wouldn't be writing this if I thought they were fibbing. The few Muslim crazies I have seen on TV couldn't possibly fib about something like this. For them, everything's war and death and kuffars and eternal paradise. It's a bizarre take on life. Such fundamentalist dogma is indeed a form of death cult. It has all the elements of a cult - the exclusivity, the obsession with enemies, the willingness to kill and die for a cause, the obsession with rules, the hierarchical social structure, the belief that only your beliefs are the true path and everybody else is living in sin.

And none of the Muslims I've met believe it. Not one.

My question remains the same: what are muslims going to do about their sanctified doctrine which creates the fundamentalist islamic death cult?

Talk is cheap Karnal, if muslims and their apologists are fair dinkum, this is the principal issue they have to address.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96421	Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther? Reply #37 - May 22^nd, 2015 at 8:02pm There is no sanctified death cult doctrine, Moses. This is a figment of your - and the cultists’ - imagination. I would have said the same about the Bible during the Inquisitions. If I was allowed to read it - and if I could get away with it. Big ifs, I know.
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Brian Ross

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Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?
Reply #38 - May 22^nd, 2015 at 8:23pm

moses wrote on May 22^nd, 2015 at 3:55pm:

Karnal wrote: Quote:

But they have. We have one of the Muselmen on this very board who has addressed just that.

If you recall, his take is that many of the aHadith were written by Arab warlords to reflect their own interests. The aHadith are not sacred commands, and nor should they be seen as such.

And yes, he has an Islamic school of thought to back it up. It's not just G's own ramblings, which I'm sure you'll agree, are articulate, intelligent, reflective and insightful.

It's no good going on about the hadi'th only, depraved evilness permeates the entire spectrum of islam E.G.:the deeds and teachings of muhammad, the supposed commands of allah, the verses in the qur'an and the hadi'th, the supposedly sacred doctrine of islam.

How does that differ from The Bible?

Quote:

Quote:

There is not a "sheer scale of evil" in the Quran - not that I'm aware of, anyway. There are battles and executions and threats of executions. It was written during a time of war. It's purpose, described within, was to create peace. Much of the Quran is about just this - you just don't quote these bits. Just as you refuse to discuss all the executions and torture in the Old Testament.

Rubbish it's handbook of depravity giving divine sanction to muslims to rape, torture and murder their fellow man in the name of islam.

Create peace how? By mass slaughter, slavery, excessive subjugation and taxation, forced submission and conversion to islam?

Christianity has been no different during it's long history...

Quote:

Quote:

I'm not sure how this could be a meaningless excuse when Muslims themselves believe it. I wouldn't be writing this if I thought they were fibbing. The few Muslim crazies I have seen on TV couldn't possibly fib about something like this. For them, everything's war and death and kuffars and eternal paradise. It's a bizarre take on life. Such fundamentalist dogma is indeed a form of death cult. It has all the elements of a cult - the exclusivity, the obsession with enemies, the willingness to kill and die for a cause, the obsession with rules, the hierarchical social structure, the belief that only your beliefs are the true path and everybody else is living in sin.

And none of the Muslims I've met believe it. Not one.

My question remains the same: what are muslims going to do about their sanctified doctrine which creates the fundamentalist islamic death cult?

Talk is cheap Karnal, if muslims and their apologists are fair dinkum, this is the principal issue they have to address.

When will Christianity address it's history? Roll Eyes

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Soren

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Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?
Reply #39 - May 23^rd, 2015 at 9:31am

Brian Ross wrote on May 20^th, 2015 at 10:52pm:

Soren wrote on May 20^th, 2015 at 9:59pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 20^th, 2015 at 8:27pm:

Soren wrote on May 19^th, 2015 at 6:35pm:

It's bollocks, on both accounts.

So, what about their preservation of the science, the medicine, the philosophy of the Ancients which the West had conveniently forgotten or ignored, Soren? You are aware, I take it of what contribution the taking of the city of Toledo and its massive libraries by the Spaniards from the Moors had on the kick starting of the Renaissance?

Bollocks. It's just not true.

It's the same caper as the 'Arabic' numbers. They are not Arabic at all but Indian.

The renaissance was not kick started by the Muslims except by finally overrunning Byzantium and causing a massive influx of Greek refugees and books to the West.

The 'preservation' of antiquity by the Muslims is a load of nonsense.

Funny how all the historians believe otherwise, Soren... Roll Eyes

Believe - exactly. It's a bit of PC slant.

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 42308	Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther? Reply #40 - May 23^rd, 2015 at 12:57pm Soren wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 9:31am: Believe - exactly. It's a bit of PC slant. Except it predates the modern craze of describing anything pro-Islamic as "PC", Soren.
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moses

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Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?
Reply #41 - May 23^rd, 2015 at 1:56pm

Karnal wrote: Quote:

There is no sanctified death cult doctrine, Moses. This is a figment of your - and the cultists’ - imagination.

I would have said the same about the Bible during the Inquisitions. If I was allowed to read it - and if I could get away with it.

Big ifs, I know.

Like I have always said talk of islamic reform is meaningless drivel from muslims and the apologists.

You deny that the qur'an sanctifies and engenders islamic death cult ideology.

You and the muslims keep on lying, hiding from the issue, islamic atrocities will rule the day as always. (until the rest of the world gets so fed up, islam will pay the price)

Excuses, deliberate lies and false analogies, why?

Because islam will never be able to defend it'self with reason and logic, truth will be the downfall and defeat of islam

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Soren

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Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?
Reply #42 - May 23^rd, 2015 at 2:26pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 12:57pm:

Soren wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 9:31am:

Believe - exactly. It's a bit of PC slant.

Except it predates the modern craze of describing anything pro-Islamic as "PC", Soren. Roll Eyes

It certainly does not.

The Muslims' role in saving and transmitting ancient books is wildly overstated.

They were very selective in what they translated - no poems or plays, for example - and most of the translators were not Arabs themselves.
In any case, the selective open-mindedness was very short-lived.

The role of refugees from Islamic conquests in the Greek east is far more important and lasting.

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Karnal

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Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?
Reply #43 - May 23^rd, 2015 at 2:34pm

Soren wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 2:26pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 12:57pm:

Soren wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 9:31am:

Believe - exactly. It's a bit of PC slant.

Except it predates the modern craze of describing anything pro-Islamic as "PC", Soren. Roll Eyes

It certainly does not.

The Muslims' role in saving and transmitting ancient books is wildly overstated.

They were very selective in what they translated - no poems or plays, for example - and most of the translators were not Arabs themselves.
In any case, the selective open-mindedness was very short-lived.

The role of refugees from Islamic conquests in the Greek east is far more important and lasting.

That’s right, old boy. There is no tradition of Persian or Moghul poetry and songs, it just doesn’t exist.

Always absolutely, innit.

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Brian Ross

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Re: So, does Islam need a Martin Luther?
Reply #44 - May 23^rd, 2015 at 3:00pm

Soren wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 2:26pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 12:57pm:

Soren wrote on May 23^rd, 2015 at 9:31am:

Believe - exactly. It's a bit of PC slant.

Except it predates the modern craze of describing anything pro-Islamic as "PC", Soren. Roll Eyes

It certainly does not.

The Muslims' role in saving and transmitting ancient books is wildly overstated.

They were very selective in what they translated - no poems or plays, for example - and most of the translators were not Arabs themselves.
In any case, the selective open-mindedness was very short-lived.

The role of refugees from Islamic conquests in the Greek east is far more important and lasting.

All just excuses, Soren and you know it.

The Arabs paid for and maintained the libraries. The Spaniards took Toledo after a siege and looted the libraries. Therefore, the Arabs provided most of the information that started the Renaissance. QED. Roll Eyes

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