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The conversation about revoking Australian citizen (Read 6373 times)
Karnal
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #15 - Jun 11th, 2015 at 8:10pm
 
Soren wrote on Jun 11th, 2015 at 7:42pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 10th, 2015 at 6:30pm:
Yes Soren - the court *MAY* do this and it *MAY* do that. Which was precisely my point. There's far more certainty in simply handing arbitrary powers to a minister who doesn't need to go through the minefield that is the judicial system - capiche?


Don't be daft.  This is the evidence act, pal, not some Hizbi gathering where you can say nonsense like that.

What it means is that the court may seek whatever evidence it sees fit to satisfy itself that a case of public interest against disclosure exists.  It doesn't mean that the court has no access to the info or that the info can be withheld from a court. The executive (ie a minister) cannot direct the judiciary.

Separation of power, pal. Look it up. It will shock you - there IS a separation of the powers of the legislature (parliament), the executive (government) and the judiciary (court), it's not all up to the caliph and Mohammed's successor and all that backward shite.

This stupid Muslim victimhood mongering at the slightest sniff of non-sharia system is tedious and laughable.



Oh, I know, dear boy. You Huns lack a certain separation of powers yourselves, no?

Muhammed’s successor and all that backward shite, innit.


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polite_gandalf
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #16 - Jun 12th, 2015 at 11:17am
 
Soren wrote on Jun 11th, 2015 at 7:42pm:
What it means is that the court may seek whatever evidence it sees fit to satisfy itself that a case of public interest against disclosure exists.  It doesn't mean that the court has no access to the info or that the info can be withheld from a court. The executive (ie a minister) cannot direct the judiciary.


No, genius, the judiciary directs itself - according to the legislation it is bound by  Tongue

Now stop fapping.


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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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mothra
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #17 - Jun 12th, 2015 at 12:13pm
 
issuevoter wrote on Jun 10th, 2015 at 7:02am:
I think the OP has a hysterical tone.



Yadda hysterical? What gave it away?
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double plus good
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #18 - Jun 12th, 2015 at 12:18pm
 
I don't understand why this issue has become a muslim thing? It targets security risks of all races.
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Yadda
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #19 - Jun 12th, 2015 at 12:19pm
 
mothra wrote on Jun 12th, 2015 at 12:13pm:
issuevoter wrote on Jun 10th, 2015 at 7:02am:
I think the OP has a hysterical tone.



Yadda hysterical? What gave it away?





LOL


Such is life.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Soren
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #20 - Jun 12th, 2015 at 12:42pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 12th, 2015 at 11:17am:
Soren wrote on Jun 11th, 2015 at 7:42pm:
What it means is that the court may seek whatever evidence it sees fit to satisfy itself that a case of public interest against disclosure exists.  It doesn't mean that the court has no access to the info or that the info can be withheld from a court. The executive (ie a minister) cannot direct the judiciary.


No, genius, the judiciary directs itself - according to the legislation it is bound by  Tongue







So the executive does not determine whether there is or is not a judicial review of its decisions.

So your whole hand-wringing while bed-wetting about 'no judicial oversight' is a ludicrous Hizbi agit-prop.



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issuevoter
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #21 - Jun 12th, 2015 at 1:05pm
 
mothra wrote on Jun 12th, 2015 at 12:13pm:
issuevoter wrote on Jun 10th, 2015 at 7:02am:
I think the OP has a hysterical tone.



Yadda hysterical? What gave it away?


What gave it away? Well, for one thing the overall style of varied fonts and magnitudes. A bit like a spruker outside Silly Sollie’s discount store.

And I take exception to the assertion that my logic is that of T. Abbott PM. I oppose his policy of Muslim appeasement here in Australia, and his waste of Australian troops in the Middle East in an unwinnable minor campaign in the overall war against Islam; the war they declared in the 1990s.

However, I am in accord with most of Yadda’s content. Moderate Islam is a total myth. You either believe Mohammed was the messenger of God and infallible, or you do not. Those who do are dangerous fanatics and are what we call Muslims.

Many Muslims, especially those who live in the West, adopt a facade of Western post-Enlightenment reason. It is of course a cover for their true Mohammedanism which we have seen comes to the surface as opportunities arise. 
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No political allegiance. No philosophy. No religion.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #22 - Jun 12th, 2015 at 2:17pm
 
Soren wrote on Jun 12th, 2015 at 12:42pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 12th, 2015 at 11:17am:
Soren wrote on Jun 11th, 2015 at 7:42pm:
What it means is that the court may seek whatever evidence it sees fit to satisfy itself that a case of public interest against disclosure exists.  It doesn't mean that the court has no access to the info or that the info can be withheld from a court. The executive (ie a minister) cannot direct the judiciary.


No, genius, the judiciary directs itself - according to the legislation it is bound by  Tongue



So the executive does not determine whether there is or is not a judicial review of its decisions.

So your whole hand-wringing while bed-wetting about 'no judicial oversight' is a ludicrous Hizbi agit-prop.


I don't even know what you are arguing S - you entered this thread to rather bizarrely criticise me for claiming the proposed ministerial powers of citizenship was a vastly more efficient way of thwarting terrorists.

Have you forgotton that?

Just mindless fapping.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Soren
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #23 - Jun 12th, 2015 at 6:55pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 12th, 2015 at 2:17pm:
Soren wrote on Jun 12th, 2015 at 12:42pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 12th, 2015 at 11:17am:
Soren wrote on Jun 11th, 2015 at 7:42pm:
What it means is that the court may seek whatever evidence it sees fit to satisfy itself that a case of public interest against disclosure exists.  It doesn't mean that the court has no access to the info or that the info can be withheld from a court. The executive (ie a minister) cannot direct the judiciary.


No, genius, the judiciary directs itself - according to the legislation it is bound by  Tongue



So the executive does not determine whether there is or is not a judicial review of its decisions.

So your whole hand-wringing while bed-wetting about 'no judicial oversight' is a ludicrous Hizbi agit-prop.


I don't even know what you are arguing S - you entered this thread to rather bizarrely criticise me for claiming the proposed ministerial powers of citizenship was a vastly more efficient way of thwarting terrorists.

Have you forgotton that?

Just mindless fapping.



Is there another Gandalf here? Your first post on this thread:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 9th, 2015 at 4:05pm:
The evidence that some in the government want to act upon relates mainly to intelligence collected by security agencies, and the point is that sort of evidence is not admissible in a court of law.

Thats why they want to bypass the courts and give the minister himself the power to take preventative action on terror suspects. Presumably the minister can't be given the power to lock someone up indefinitely - so the next best thing is to give him/her the power to boot them out of the country (or ensure they can't get back in if already outside).




Two massive Hizbi propaganda howlers.

'inadmissible in court' - you have no idea what you are talking about. Too much TV, obviously.

The executive (government) cannot bypass the court without the legislature (parliament) - but even the decision of the legislature is subject to judicial review if contrary to the constitution - so you can always take a legislation to the high court and the court will decide.

No government can block the courts.

It is called the separation of powers - you are obviously unfamiliar/hostile to the the notion, being an ummah kinda guy.




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polite_gandalf
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #24 - Jun 12th, 2015 at 8:24pm
 
Intelligence can absolutely be inadmissible - as determined by the court itself. I demonstrated that perfectly.

But thats not the point - the whole point of this is to bypass the courts - otherwise the government wouldn't be trying to come up with a way to strip citizenship that doesn't involve proving something in court now would it? Think about it Soren, use your noggin. If you still want to fap about this - at least do me a favour and before you do - ask yourself why the government wants to do this, and if you can't come up with an answer that doesn't include "avoiding having to prove something in court" - then best to just be quiet.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Soren
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #25 - Jun 12th, 2015 at 8:31pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 12th, 2015 at 8:24pm:
Intelligence can absolutely be inadmissible - as determined by the court itself. I demonstrated that perfectly.

But thats not the point - the whole point of this is to bypass the courts - otherwise the government wouldn't be trying to come up with a way to strip citizenship that doesn't involve proving something in court now would it? Think about it Soren, use your noggin. If you still want to fap about this - at least do me a favour and before you do - ask yourself why the government wants to do this, and if you can't come up with an answer that doesn't include "avoiding having to prove something in court" - then best to just be quiet.

You are talking crap.You are ignorant of what you are talking about.

Crappity crap.

There is no 'bypassing the courts' by the executive in the Westminster system, bozo. Separation of powers.

I don't know what it will take for it to sink in. We are not in Ummah-land any more, Toto.



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polite_gandalf
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #26 - Jun 13th, 2015 at 7:52am
 
bypass, avoid, avert, circumvent - do any of those verbs satisfy your fapping S?

You're not making any point, there is no disputing that the whole idea of these proposed ministerial powers is to reduce relying on the courts.

As Peter Dutton said "thats the whole point".
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Karnal
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #27 - Jun 13th, 2015 at 1:18pm
 
Soren wrote on Jun 12th, 2015 at 8:31pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 12th, 2015 at 8:24pm:
Intelligence can absolutely be inadmissible - as determined by the court itself. I demonstrated that perfectly.

But thats not the point - the whole point of this is to bypass the courts - otherwise the government wouldn't be trying to come up with a way to strip citizenship that doesn't involve proving something in court now would it? Think about it Soren, use your noggin. If you still want to fap about this - at least do me a favour and before you do - ask yourself why the government wants to do this, and if you can't come up with an answer that doesn't include "avoiding having to prove something in court" - then best to just be quiet.

You are talking crap.You are ignorant of what you are talking about.

Crappity crap.

There is no 'bypassing the courts' by the executive in the Westminster system, bozo. Separation of powers.

I don't know what it will take for it to sink in. We are not in Ummah-land any more, Toto.





Oh, old boy, your knowledge of the separation of powers is rather Teutonic, to say the least.

All that has to happen to bypass the courts is legislation, which is what courts rule on. The only form of law that can’t easily be changed by politicians is the constitution, which requires a referendum.

We don’t have an "executive" branch in the Westminster system. You’ve been watching too many episodes of the West Wing. Australia is still a constitutional monarchy, not a republic. We have a quaint old thing called the Crown.

The separation of powers is simply about the division between these powers, not their application. There are ministerial powers for a whole range of government functions, many of which can’t be contested in court - or which won’t necessarily be heard by a court if a civil claim is lodged.

Dutton is seeking to bypass the courts, as G asserts. All that needs to happen to do this is legislation passed by both houses and the signature of the Queen’s representative.

This is one reason why the US has found it impossible to pass similar laws to the UK, which has passed legislation to cancel the citizenship of dual nationals.  The US does not use the Westminster System and has much stronger constitutional protection for its citizens.

Best to stick to civilisation and your contents, dear boy.
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« Last Edit: Jun 13th, 2015 at 1:33pm by Karnal »  
 
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Karnal
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #28 - Jun 13th, 2015 at 1:47pm
 
On another note, ASIO required a whole host of powers when it was established after WWII. It was initially funded by the US under the five eyes agreement. ASIO was created to come under US influence and reduce the former Anglo influence on Australian foreign and domestic policy. ASIO was given unprecedented powers during the Cold War. These were relaxed in the 1970s and 80s, and strengthened again by Howard in the climate of the War on Terror.

ASIO is excluded from.a whole range of criminal and civil laws, and this was the intention of the US when it was established as an.outpost of the newly created CIA.

Unlike the US, the lack of a Bill of Rights in Australia makes these powers much easier to administer than in the US.
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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #29 - Jun 13th, 2015 at 1:59pm
 
Mmm, I've always understood that ASIO was the branch office of MI5 downunder.  My father always maintained that the two key attributes to an ASIO officer was that he was British and could ride a bike, from his period as the deputy Project Manager at Woomera.   Roll Eyes
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