Australian Politics Forum - The conversation about revoking Australian citizen

Karnal

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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #30 - Jun 13^th, 2015 at 3:27pm

The establishment of ASIO, with all its Cold War powers, was crucial to the ANZUS alliance. The US weren’t willing to deal without it. One of the reasons the CIA worked covertly with the National Party during the Whitlam years, was the unprecedented raids on ASIO offices when Labor came to power. This, and the anti-Pine Gap sentiment in Labor ranks, is a key reason the CIA turned on the Whitlam government and secretly plotted to remove it from power.

Separation of Powers, innit.

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Soren

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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #31 - Jun 13^th, 2015 at 3:29pm

You may be seated. PB.

Karnal wrote on Jun 13^th, 2015 at 1:18pm:

We don’t have an "executive" branch in the Westminster system. You’ve been watching too many episodes of the West Wing. Australia is still a constitutional monarchy, not a republic. We have a quaint old thing called the Crown.

The Australian Constitution
Table of Provisions
View the Constitution as a single document (PDF 92KB)

An Act to constitute the Commonwealth of Australia [9th July 1900]
(63 & 64 Victoria - Chapter 12)
Preamble
Chapter I. The Parliament (s. 1 to 60)
Part I - General (s. 1 to 6)
Part II - The Senate (s. 7 to 23)
Part III - The House of Representatives (s. 24 to 40)
Part IV - Both Houses of the Parliament (s. 41 to 50)
Part V - Powers of the Parliament (s. 51 to 60)
[url]Chapter II. The Executive Government (s. 61 to 70)[/url]
Chapter III. The Judicature (s. 71 to 80)
Chapter IV. Finance and Trade (s. 81 to 105A)
Chapter V. The States (s. 106 to 120)
Chapter VI. New States (s. 121 to 124)
Chapter VII. Miscellaneous (s. 125 to 127)
Chapter VIII. Alteration of the Constitution (s. 128)
The Schedule

http://www.peo.gov.au/learning/fact-sheets/separation-of-powers.html

Karnal wrote on Jun 13^th, 2015 at 1:18pm:

Dutton is seeking to bypass the courts, as G asserts. All that needs to happen to do this is legislation passed by both houses and the signature of the Queen’s representative.

The courts have the full power to make judgements about the law, made by parliament, and about the lawfulness of the executive ( yes, PB, there is an Executive) which includes Ministers.

There is no endless judicial review of the granting of citizenship. If you meet certain criteria and perform certain actions, you become a citizen and no court needs to review it. Similarly, if you meet certain other criteria and perform certain other actions, citizenship should be taken away from you.
In both cases the law will determine what the criteria and the performed actions must be. No need to over-lawyer everything.

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Karnal

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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #32 - Jun 13^th, 2015 at 3:46pm

Good show, OB. I stand corrected. Ministers serve in the executive role.

But as I understand it, citizenship can’t be taken from you without a change to the Constitution. Dual nationals perhaps, people born here impossible. Shurely.

As a dual citizen, how do you feel about laws that could weaken your residency?

I’ve talked to people online who were rejected from the US for very minor crimes - people who had grown up there and didn’t speak the language of the country they were sent to. This also happens in Australia at the executive decision of the Minister of Immigration. Appeals are heard by the department itself.

Citizenship offers additional protection to a residential visa - an Australian passport.

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Soren

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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #33 - Jun 13^th, 2015 at 3:59pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 13^th, 2015 at 3:46pm:

Good show, OB. I stand corrected. Ministers serve in the executive role.

But as I understand it, citizenship can’t be taken from you without a change to the Constitution. Dual nationals perhaps, people born here impossible. Shurely.

As a dual citizen, how do you feel about laws that could weaken your residency?

I’ve talked to people online who were rejected from the US for very minor crimes - people who had grown up there and didn’t speak the language of the country they were sent to. This also happens in Australia at the executive decision of the Minister of Immigration. Appeals are heard by the department itself.

Citizenship offers additional protection to a residential visa - an Australian passport.

I am not a dual citizen.

More importantly, citizenship is not just about the protection of the person - it is also about the community of other citizens.

If you live here all your life and still can't be fagged to become a citizen but still cling on to the citizenship of a country you left when you were 3 and whose language you do not speak - but can be fagged to commit crimes here that are serious enough to get you deported - well, whose bloody fault is that?? It is far more important to protect Australians from you than to protect you from your own stupidity and villainousness. If you can't be bothered to commit to the place then have the decency to stay within the law.

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Karnal

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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #34 - Jun 13^th, 2015 at 4:21pm

Soren wrote on Jun 13^th, 2015 at 3:59pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 13^th, 2015 at 3:46pm:

Good show, OB. I stand corrected. Ministers serve in the executive role.

But as I understand it, citizenship can’t be taken from you without a change to the Constitution. Dual nationals perhaps, people born here impossible. Shurely.

As a dual citizen, how do you feel about laws that could weaken your residency?

I’ve talked to people online who were rejected from the US for very minor crimes - people who had grown up there and didn’t speak the language of the country they were sent to. This also happens in Australia at the executive decision of the Minister of Immigration. Appeals are heard by the department itself.

Citizenship offers additional protection to a residential visa - an Australian passport.

I am not a dual citizen.

But you'd be elligible for a Danish passport if you gave up your Australian one. Given you've made this commitment (citizenship), how would you feel if you had it revoked? How would you feel if the Customs van popped up to your house and took you to Villawaood?

They may not even tell you what for - the current practice when ASIO don't like you.

The point here is that you don't have to commit crimes. A crime is something that is proven in a court. You just have to be accused of committing a crime (or supporting or funding a crime).

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 136820 Gender:	Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen Reply #35 - Jun 13^th, 2015 at 4:25pm Soren wrote on Jun 13^th, 2015 at 3:59pm: If you live here all your life and still can't be fagged to become a citizen but still cling on to the citizenship of a country you left when you were 3 ... but can be fagged to commit crimes here ... Yes, Mr Abbott. And you too, Abetz,
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Soren

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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #36 - Jun 13^th, 2015 at 4:35pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 13^th, 2015 at 4:21pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 13^th, 2015 at 3:59pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 13^th, 2015 at 3:46pm:

Good show, OB. I stand corrected. Ministers serve in the executive role.

But as I understand it, citizenship can’t be taken from you without a change to the Constitution. Dual nationals perhaps, people born here impossible. Shurely.

As a dual citizen, how do you feel about laws that could weaken your residency?

I’ve talked to people online who were rejected from the US for very minor crimes - people who had grown up there and didn’t speak the language of the country they were sent to. This also happens in Australia at the executive decision of the Minister of Immigration. Appeals are heard by the department itself.

Citizenship offers additional protection to a residential visa - an Australian passport.

I am not a dual citizen.

But you'd be elligible for a Danish passport if you gave up your Australian one. Given you've made this commitment (citizenship), how would you feel if you had it revoked? How would you feel if the Customs van popped up to your house and took you to Villawaood?

They may not even tell you what for - the current practice when ASIO don't like you.

The point here is that you don't have to commit crimes. A crime is something that is proven in a court. You just have to be accused of committing a crime (or supporting or funding a crime).

Nonsense. I have one citizenship, Australian. They couldn't take me to Villawood just because I could apply for Danish or British citizenship. They couldn't take me to Villawood even if I DID have dual citizenship, Australian and another or even if I had only permanent residency in Australia. In all these cases they would arrest me for committing a crime and charge me and keep me in remand.
They could only take me to Villawodd if I had only a temporary entry permit and my only misdeed was in relation to that visa - ie in relation to my permit to be onshore. If I committed a serious crime, I would be arrested and kept in remand until my court appearance and then if found guilty I would be sent to jail. I would only end up in Villawood upon my release from jail, waiting for deportation.

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Karnal

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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #37 - Jun 13^th, 2015 at 9:51pm

Shurely shome mishtake. We're discussing the proposed changes to the citizenship act - which defers citizenship to immigrants.

As a citizen right now, you could not possibly be deported for being suspected of participating in foreign wars. You might not have the right to not be offended, but you have the right to not be deported. You are, in a nutshell, one of us.

And here you are arguing that the laws should be changed to make you less a one of us, merely for suspicion, at the whim of a minister.

The proposal Peter Dutton took to cabinet - a proposal the Tele reported the following day had already been approved - was so vague as to include those without the possibility of dual citizenship.

In other words, those who would have to be detained in immigration prison for the rest of their lives.

The proposal which passed cabinet includes only dual citizens, citizens (or ex-citizens) who would have somewhere to be deported to.

I believe you fit firmly into this category, and as such, are subject to the proposed changes. It also looks like Labor will pass this law.

What never ceases to amaze is that you will support, time after time, such changes that will cheapen your own rights. Not only that, but you will accuse those who defend them as Hizbis (i.e, pre-rule of law). You will advocate a Clash of Civilisations, and in so doing, comfortably erode the architecture of your own civilisation. Your end-goal is that backward tribalism you feign such camp, limp-wristed opposition to, and you're quite happy to take the rest of the place down with you.

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

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« Last Edit: Jun 13^th, 2015 at 10:10pm by Karnal »

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Yadda

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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #38 - Jun 13^th, 2015 at 10:10pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 13^th, 2015 at 9:51pm:

Shurely shome mishtake. We're discussing the proposed changes to the citizenship act - which defers citizenship to immigrants.

As a citizen right now, you could not possibly be deported for being suspected of participating in foreign wars. You might not have the right to not be offended, but you have the right to not be deported. You are, in a nutshell, one of us.

And here you are arguing that the laws should be changed to make you less a one of us, merely for suspicion, at the whim of a minister.

The proposal Peter Dutton took to cabinet - a proposal the Tele reported the following day had already been approved - was so vague as to include those without the possibility of dual citizenship.

In other words, those who would have to be detained in immigration prison for the rest of their lives.

The proposal which passed cabinet includes only dual citizens, citizens (or ex-citizens) who would have somewhere to be deported to.

I believe you fit firmly into this category, and as such, are subject to the proposed changes. It also looks like Labor will pass this law.

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

Citizenship, .....smidleship.

Moslems [residents/citizens of Australia] who are convicted in Australian courts, and found guilty of treason or actively 'preaching' sedition against the government and people of Australia, imo, then they [those convicted] should be sent to a 'super-max' prison, for the rest of their natural lives.

No release, ever.

THE WORDS OF 'AUSSIE' MOSLEMS

Jihad is lawful.

Jihad is virtuous.

ISLAM's own doctrines clearly spell out, that Jihad = = 'righteously' murdering those who reject ISLAM

--------- >

Quote:

" "You're never too young to be a soldier of Kalifah."

...and [these moslem children] promise to die fighting to end Democracy in Australia"

Watch a group of moslem children, being coached by moslem adults, to hate Australia, and Australians,
......HERE, WITHIN AUSTRALIA. !!!!

And of course this cultural coaching of moslem children is all happening behind closed doors, and out of the public eye.

------------- >

Muslims brainwash children in Australia

-------- > goto 43 sec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krk5piUzp1E

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95432 Gender:	Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen Reply #39 - Jun 13^th, 2015 at 10:13pm Thanks for standing up for the rule of law, Y. Most civilised of you.
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Soren

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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #40 - Jun 14^th, 2015 at 1:16pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 13^th, 2015 at 9:51pm:

Shurely shome mishtake. We're discussing the proposed changes to the citizenship act - which defers citizenship to immigrants.

As a citizen right now, you could not possibly be deported for being suspected of participating in foreign wars. You might not have the right to not be offended, but you have the right to not be deported. You are, in a nutshell, one of us.

And here you are arguing that the laws should be changed to make you less a one of us, merely for suspicion, at the whim of a minister.

The proposal Peter Dutton took to cabinet - a proposal the Tele reported the following day had already been approved - was so vague as to include those without the possibility of dual citizenship.

In other words, those who would have to be detained in immigration prison for the rest of their lives.

The proposal which passed cabinet includes only dual citizens, citizens (or ex-citizens) who would have somewhere to be deported to.

I believe you fit firmly into this category, and as such, are subject to the proposed changes. It also looks like Labor will pass this law.

What never ceases to amaze is that you will support, time after time, such changes that will cheapen your own rights. Not only that, but you will accuse those who defend them as Hizbis (i.e, pre-rule of law). You will advocate a Clash of Civilisations, and in so doing, comfortably erode the architecture of your own civilisation. Your end-goal is that backward tribalism you feign such camp, limp-wristed opposition to, and you're quite happy to take the rest of the place down with you.

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

What a load of bollocks.

Stripping citizenship will happen if you fight with or support a proscribed terrorist organisation - not just because you are a dual citizen.

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« Last Edit: Jun 14^th, 2015 at 1:40pm by Soren »

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Karnal

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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #41 - Jun 14^th, 2015 at 3:04pm

Soren wrote on Jun 14^th, 2015 at 1:16pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 13^th, 2015 at 9:51pm:

Shurely shome mishtake. We're discussing the proposed changes to the citizenship act - which defers citizenship to immigrants.

As a citizen right now, you could not possibly be deported for being suspected of participating in foreign wars. You might not have the right to not be offended, but you have the right to not be deported. You are, in a nutshell, one of us.

And here you are arguing that the laws should be changed to make you less a one of us, merely for suspicion, at the whim of a minister.

The proposal Peter Dutton took to cabinet - a proposal the Tele reported the following day had already been approved - was so vague as to include those without the possibility of dual citizenship.

In other words, those who would have to be detained in immigration prison for the rest of their lives.

The proposal which passed cabinet includes only dual citizens, citizens (or ex-citizens) who would have somewhere to be deported to.

I believe you fit firmly into this category, and as such, are subject to the proposed changes. It also looks like Labor will pass this law.

What never ceases to amaze is that you will support, time after time, such changes that will cheapen your own rights. Not only that, but you will accuse those who defend them as Hizbis (i.e, pre-rule of law). You will advocate a Clash of Civilisations, and in so doing, comfortably erode the architecture of your own civilisation. Your end-goal is that backward tribalism you feign such camp, limp-wristed opposition to, and you're quite happy to take the rest of the place down with you.

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

What a load of bollocks.

Stripping citizenship will happen if you fight with or support a proscribed terrorist organisation - not just because you are a dual citizen.

So far, cabinet don’t support this, and Brandis has said it would be unconstitutional.

I can’t see the population going with an Australian born citizen getting the flick, even if it were legal to do so. It certainly came round to David Hicks.

This legislation is aimed squarely at new citizens like yourself. As you point out, who even becomes a citizen if they don’t bring a level of committment? Passports aside, citizenship is a symbolic gesture. You don’t need to do it.

The foreign fighters we seem to be dealing with here are first generation Arab kids. They are not subject to the government’s (revised) proposed changes.

Cheated? You bet. The person this legislation applies to is you.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen Reply #42 - Jun 14^th, 2015 at 3:41pm Karnal wrote on Jun 14^th, 2015 at 3:04pm: The person this legislation applies to is you. I am not a dual citizen, nor am I fighting with or support Islamic terrorists. How the hell would it apply to me?
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Karnal

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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #43 - Jun 14^th, 2015 at 4:15pm

Soren wrote on Jun 14^th, 2015 at 3:41pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 14^th, 2015 at 3:04pm:

The person this legislation applies to is you.

I am not a dual citizen, nor am I fighting with or support Islamic terrorists.

How the hell would it apply to me?

Ministerial discretion can apply to any dual citizen. Again, no one needs to be convicted of anything.

You’re right though. As the proposal stands, it may not apply to you - if Denmark and Australia don’t change the rules.

But you’d love to apply it to all foreigners, no? You’re just begging to be rogered.

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Soren

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Re: The conversation about revoking Australian citizen
Reply #44 - Jun 14^th, 2015 at 4:31pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 14^th, 2015 at 4:15pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 14^th, 2015 at 3:41pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 14^th, 2015 at 3:04pm:

The person this legislation applies to is you.

I am not a dual citizen, nor am I fighting with or support Islamic terrorists.

How the hell would it apply to me?

Ministerial discretion can apply to any dual citizen. Again, no one needs to be convicted of anything.

Nonsense. You have to support proscribed terrorist organisations. The fact of your dual citizenship alone is not enough.

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