Soren wrote on Jul 7
th, 2015 at 12:55pm:
Karnal wrote on Jul 7
th, 2015 at 11:29am:
Moses, I don't think any of your quotes actually mean what you've said. Take this one:
Quote:qur'an 8.67: It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made a great slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Muhammed is advising his followers
not to kill prisoners of war.
Or this one:
Quote:qur'an 9.20: Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's cause are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant.
How does this translate into Jihad and Islamic slaughter?
Or this one:
Quote:qur'an 61.4: Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.
It's about banding together and being a strong team.
Academics have argued that the Koran contains two separate things: instructions on a spiritual path; and the attempt to lay down a social order in a time of unrest (including the rules of war).
The difficulty in the Koran is that these two purposes can conflict.
Allah is uanble to come up with divine guidance for both the spirit and society?? The eternal, unchangable book has conflicting advice?? What kind of 'only one god' is Allah if he can't even manage a straght final revelation but comes up with more confusion and contradiction than before?
Good point. If Muslims saw the Koran as the straight, final revelation, they would hardly need all those aHadith to attempt to qualify it.
Nothing can possibly be the final revelation. No one can possibly be the final prophet. I'm okay with the fundamentals of Islam - there is no God but Allah and Muhammed is His prophet - but I can't go with the dogma that there's no other way. I don't even see how this squares with Islamic theology/cosmology itself if the universe is to be seen as the ever-unfolding, increasingly complex expression of Allah. There
have to be other prophets.
Muslims and Christians both saw the final ascension as being just around the corner. So far, it's been 2000 years and the universe continues to happily unfold.
There are different paths for different people, but I do think the paths result in essentially the same thing: humility, mercy, peace. This is what submission means: submitting your ego to a well-trodden path, submitting to a higher force, giving up.
Muhammed is not a savior, he's a prophet. He's also dead. People who follow the path need people to guide them in this world - people who have walked the path, not just read about it.
You can get a few tips for life and submission from Muhammed and the Koran, but you still have to walk the path. You still need teachers to show you how. Muhammed is not the final teacher in the Muslim tradition, he's really the first - this, I gather, is what it means to be a prophet. Abraham established a covenant. Moses led his people out of slavery. Jesus led followers on a path of forgiveness and humility. Muhammed formed a society and established a rule of law.
None of this means anything, however, if you don't take the steps yourself. No blood covenant, or sacrificial salvation, or religious conversion will save you from having to walk the path and making progress on it. The rules are important in establishing a direction, but they're not the destination.
This is the mistake fundamentalists - both for and against Islam - make.
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