Australian Politics Forum - treacherous Jews

Setanta

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Re: treacherous Jews
Reply #45 - Jul 3^rd, 2015 at 10:16pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2015 at 7:56pm:

Then you obviously know nothing about history.

I think you are correct. I'm no historian but I am a fan. The Romans, in their first contacts with the Gauls in northern Italy, Cisalpine Gaul, carried our what you would call "cutting the tree off at it's root" by slaughtering the women/children/elders everyone that was left after the warriors went out to fight so there was nothing to come back to and to continue to fight for. Caesar, as the protector of the Gauls in Gaul killed and sold into slavery 2/3 of the population. His treatment of Gergovia, 40,000 men women and children, the whole population, slaughtered. Look at the Roman boasts about the Dacian population after Trajan's escapades. I wonder if the Visigoths decided to get up and leave their home and venture across the Danube to Rome's territory because the Huns were taxing them too much rather than killing wholesale.

This does not mean I support any of this, is just a fact of history.

Edit: You could also look at the smallpox infected blankets given to the American Indians type thing, lovely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Pitt

Or the first recorded bio warfare, hurling plague infected corpses into a city. 1346 Siege of Caffa.

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« Last Edit: Jul 3^rd, 2015 at 11:04pm by Setanta »

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Phemanderac

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Re: treacherous Jews
Reply #46 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 8:03am

All good points sentana, I am currently thinking that you will be further advised as to how, why and where they do not fit the story. Ultimately though, it would seem that all of the denials about these like events will come down to the inability to point at Muslims as being responsible.

FD appears unable to grasp that one basic idea, not all atrocities are committed by people of Islamic faith, or that not all atrocities are committed by and/or supported by people of Islamic faith.

Human history is full of examples of people's slaughtering, enslaving, torturing, raping, pillaging and inflicting all manner of brutality and deprivation on each other - it is, quite clearly, part of our nature. It is human strength of character underneath all of this barbarity that makes some people exceptional, it is human strength of character that makes acts of barbarity a part of our nature and not our entire nature...It is also, seemingly at least, part of our nature to recognise when we have done wrong and try to justify it in emotive terms... Occasionally some humans simply take responsibility for their actions - even that is not limited though to Muslims or non Muslims....

It didn't seem hard to work this out, well until I came to this forum and met those who abjectly fail to grasp it...

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freediver

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Re: treacherous Jews
Reply #47 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 9:10am

Quote:

Ultimately though, it would seem that all of the denials

Where did I deny them Phem? You seem to be buying into Gandalfs strawman.

Quote:

FD appears unable to grasp that one basic idea, not all atrocities are committed by people of Islamic faith, or that not all atrocities are committed by and/or supported by people of Islamic faith.

Yet even when they are, you still insist it has nothing to do with Islam.

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Phemanderac

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Re: treacherous Jews
Reply #48 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 9:35am

Quote:

FD appears unable to grasp that one basic idea, not all atrocities are committed by people of Islamic faith, or that not all atrocities are committed by and/or supported by people of Islamic faith.

Yet even when they are, you still insist it has nothing to do with Islam. [/quote]

Really, show me where I have ever insisted that is has nothing to do with Islam?

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Phemanderac

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Re: treacherous Jews
Reply #49 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 9:41am

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 9:10am:

Where did I deny them Phem?

You asked for examples of people slaughtering others, I have you the slaughters (more than one...) of Indigenous people of Australia as an example - you then claim it is out of context because it was not justified by a religion - arguable it was though, just not the religion of Islam. That is a denial, then when I point out that it is ok for people to pre judge all Asylum seekers as guilty you shift the goal posts and, yep, more denial.

If you are going to ask for examples...

a) The onus is on you to be more specific
b) The onus is on you to cop it on the chin when the examples are put up, exactly as you originally framed the request.

You denied their validity, that is denial....

Now, your turn to demonstrate how I have "insisted it has nothing to do with Islam"

Be specific now, as in those exact words or that exact meaning. NOT your extrapolation of some other unrelated point I have made.

Good luck now!

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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

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freediver

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Re: treacherous Jews
Reply #50 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 9:59am

Quote:

You asked for examples of people slaughtering others, I have you the slaughters (more than one...) of Indigenous people of Australia as an example - you then claim it is out of context because it was not justified by a religion

I did not claim it was out of context. I used your example to prove my point.

Quote:

You denied their validity, that is denial....

I did not deny it's validity. That example is about as good as it gets. Those aborigines were threatening the establishment of a fledgling nation where none existed before, based on a different set of values, rule of law, etc. By Gandalf's logic, we should pick one of the slaughterers as our prophet. I'm sure we could find one who muttered some quaint philosophy, and say a sheep ate the rest of the words.

Quote:

Now, your turn to demonstrate how I have "insisted it has nothing to do with Islam"

How else should I interpret this?

Quote:

The point is, Muslims do bad things because they are human beings - if nothing else, history consistently demonstrates that humans can be both divine and devils at any given time, regardless of morals, religion, skin colour, social structures, social constructs, laws and the list goes on.

Do Muslims ever do bad things because of Islam?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: treacherous Jews Reply #51 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 10:39am freediver wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2015 at 9:37pm: Can you come up with a similar example of such a slaughter of innocent people that you support? Can you give any other example of people being found guilty 'by default' and facing the death penalty? ummm so did it happen a lot or not?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver

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Re: treacherous Jews
Reply #52 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 10:45am

Did what happen a lot? People inventing religions to justify the slaughter of innocent people and build a nation that tries to conquer the world? I think that one only happened once Gandalf. God willing.

Gandalf do you think it is fair to be judged guilty and handed a death penalty by default because of your age and gender?

Can you come up with a similar example of such a slaughter of innocent people that you support?

Can you give any other example of people being found guilty 'by default' and facing the death penalty?

What happened to your "refusal to disown" justification for this slaughter?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: treacherous Jews
Reply #53 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 11:15am

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 10:45am:

Did what happen a lot?

You need to clear that up yourself FD. See we went from:

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 7:02pm:

Can you give some examples of people slaughtering large numbers of innocent, unarmed people because they feel threatened by them?

to now:

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 10:45am:

Can you come up with a similar example of such a slaughter of innocent people that you support?

Can you give any other example of people being found guilty 'by default' and facing the death penalty?

This is what we call shifting the goal posts.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: treacherous Jews Reply #54 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 11:15am The board is all back to front - can you fix it please?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Phemanderac

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Re: treacherous Jews
Reply #55 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 12:50pm

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 9:59am:

I did not deny it's validity.

Yep you did.

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 9:59am:

By Gandalf's logic, we should pick one of the slaughterers as our prophet.

Furphy alert... Nothing to do with Gandalf's application of logic here, this is all on you mate.

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 9:59am:

Quote:
Now, your turn to demonstrate how I have "insisted it has nothing to do with Islam"

How else should I interpret this?

Nothing to interpret, you need to absolutely demonstrate where I have "insisted"....

If you spent more time dealing with what is said, less time interpreting (and thus building strawmen) perhaps you might make a bit more headway, I say perhaps advisedly though.

So, clearly, you have acknowledged that you cannot demonstrate the point you made... Apart from your misinterpretations.

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 9:59am:

Do Muslims ever do bad things because of Islam?

That is not a black and white question?

There is no yes or no answer that resolves that, at best, doubtful but even that is not particularly accurate.

People always do bad things though and then use a wide range of causes, beliefs, lies and misdirection to justify them.... I think this is what you are not quite grasping.

People do bad things because of ALL organised religion, in effect. However, we also blame a whole range of other things.

It seems patently evident that people are generally not very responsible for their individual choices. Then other people support their irresponsibility by irresponsibly labeling entire groups - I am more than a bit bemused that this simple fact escapes you.

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freediver

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Re: treacherous Jews
Reply #56 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 1:14pm

Quote:

This is what we call shifting the goal posts.

I call it asking for examples. I'll give you an example.

Can you come up with a similar example of such a slaughter of innocent people that you support?

Can you give any other example of people being found guilty 'by default' and facing the death penalty?

Here are some other questions. Be careful not to confuse them with me definitely saying something.

Do you think it is fair to be judged guilty and handed a death penalty by default because of your age and gender?

What happened to your "refusal to disown" justification for this slaughter?

Quote:

Yep you did.

Quote me.

Quote:

Furphy alert... Nothing to do with Gandalf's application of logic here, this is all on you mate.

Gandalf used (among various other excuses) the "threat to the fledgling nation" justification for genocide. When you think about it, it is remarkably similar, except for the religious dedication to making excuses for it.

Quote:

There is no yes or no answer that resolves that, at best, doubtful but even that is not particularly accurate.

What about the Muslims travelling to the middle east to participate in the festival of rape and pillage. What, other than Islam, do you think motivates them?

Quote:

People always do bad things though and then use a wide range of causes, beliefs, lies and misdirection to justify them.... I think this is what you are not quite grasping.

This reminds me of Gweg's argument that those Muslims would be raping and pillaging their way across western Sydney if they were not Muslims. How far do you take this nonsense?

Quote:

It seems patently evident that people are generally not very responsible for their individual choices.

The funny thing is, Gweg came to the same conclusion as you by arguing absolute responsibility. Between the various apologists, you desperately come up with anything other than Islam to blame.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: treacherous Jews
Reply #57 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 2:37pm

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 1:14pm:

Can you give any other example of people being found guilty 'by default' and facing the death penalty?

I can give you about a thousand examples of people being found guilty of nothing and slaughtered anyway - in far far greater numbers. Particularly women and children.

FD are you seriously scratching your head wondering what in history could possibly have been worse than what happened to the Banu Qurayza? Your line of questioning is completely bizarre. Especially when we give you the examples you deman, but its somehow not considered valid.

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 1:14pm:

Can you come up with a similar example of such a slaughter of innocent people that you support?

Obviously I reject the premise. I don't support slaughtering anyone who is innocent. The men were guilty as soon as they refused to disown the treachery of their tribe and re-pledge their loyalty to the city that gave them protection - when given the opportunity. Yet those who trully were innocent - the women and children - were recognised as such and spared, and given protection by the state.

Mass killings of all of a tribe's men of military age by a victorious army is so common throughout history that its rarely ever worth mentioning. Moreover, indiscriminate mass killings of all - men women and children - is even more common. Have you made up your mind if you agree with me on that yet?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: treacherous Jews
Reply #58 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 2:42pm

Quote:

I can give you about a thousand examples of people being found guilty of nothing and slaughtered anyway - in far far greater numbers. Particularly women and children.

Can you give an example of people being found guilty 'by default' and facing the death penalty?

Quote:

FD are you seriously scratching your head wondering what in history could possibly have been worse than what happened to the Banu Qurayza?

No, I am scratching my head at the excuses you are making up.

Quote:

The men were guilty as soon as they refused to disown the treachery

Can you quote the relevant bit about them refusing to disown it?

Quote:

Yet those who trully were innocent - the women and children

Why does gender and age determine guilt?

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Phemanderac

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Re: treacherous Jews
Reply #59 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 3:24pm

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 1:14pm:

Quote me.

It was my interpretation of what you said though...

To be fair, once you quote me "insisting" I will go back and see if I can quote you.

Obviously then, we are both in the position to demonstrate responsibility and admit we got it wrong eh?

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 1:14pm:

What, other than Islam, do you think motivates them?

A little thing that I have frequently mentioned, abusive use of power and control. Islam is the excuse.

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 1:14pm:

This reminds me of Gweg's argument

That's nice, but it isn't Greg's argument (by the way, do grow up - Gweg? Seriously?)...

Still, I note you appear to have significant difficulty in dealing what is right in front of you.

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 1:14pm:

The funny thing is, Gweg came to the same conclusion as you by arguing absolute responsibility. Between the various apologists, you desperately come up with anything other than Islam to blame.

So, you do not support individuals being responsible for their own actions, decisions, words or errors?

OK, I am glad that I have cleared that up and gleaned that remarkable insight into your character.

It is kind of funny that, in arguing for individual responsibility I become the apologist...

You have a long way to go, good luck on your journey.

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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

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