Australian Politics Forum - Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35

Unforgiven

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #30 - Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 2:28pm

It is interesting that Americans protest diplomatically when Chinese subs shadow American military manoeuvres in international waters while Americans dismiss Chinese protests about USA overflying Chinese navy and military bases on Islands in the Chinese sea.

"It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence."

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Brian Ross

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Re: Australlia submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #31 - Jul 3^rd, 2015 at 8:08pm

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 5:45am:

John Smith wrote on Jul 1^st, 2015 at 12:41pm:

From what I've seen, our submarines are much better than any off the others out there. During recent war games even the American subs couldn't match them. All the so called 'problems' they've had have stemmed from compatibility issues with American weapons systems. I doubt anything Chinese made is likely to be any more compatible.

When dealing with the lives of our submariners, or any of our defence forces, I'd rather pay more and get the best then the cheapest. Anyone who disagrees should volunteer for the submarine corp.

then you haven't seen much then have you...

they are a great stinking, over budget (thanks unions), pile of poo...

only a dimwit would build submarines in Australia..

Que - Bull Shitten... http://i978.photobucket.com/albums/ae269/oldpom/bill-short.jpg

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the dismal history of the Collins-class submarines that were always delivered late and way over budget. At any one time over recent years, only one or two of these creaking vessels have been available and seaworthy at any one time with the low point being between October, 2009 and February, 2010 when exactly none were available.

I take it you believe in giving foreigners jobs and not Australians then?

You do realise that the COLLINS was initially built in Sweden and then had to be reconstructed in Australia, after the numerous faults were found in it's construction by the Swedes? Roll Eyes

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Unforgiven

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #32 - Jul 3^rd, 2015 at 9:53pm

The people likely to be working on Australian submarines manufactured in Australia are likely to be foreigners.

What if they gave a war and Australia did not come because the submarines were late and-or not seaworthy.

The Swedes are hardly renowned in the submarine business. They frequently report unidentified submarines in their waters and never catch one.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #33 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 12:05am

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2015 at 9:53pm:

The people likely to be working on Australian submarines manufactured in Australia are likely to be foreigners.

What if they gave a war and Australia did not come because the submarines were late and-or not seaworthy.

The Swedes are hardly renowned in the submarine business. They frequently report unidentified submarines in their waters and never catch one.

Which rather indicates just how difficult ASW is. The RN in the Falklands War fired large numbers of torpedoes, depth charges and mortar rounds at what they believed were Argentine submarines. ASW is more an "art" than a "science" in the minds of most naval planners. The COLLINS class are more silent underwater than the OBERONS that they replaced. They are one of the largest conventional powered submarines in the world today and they possess capabilities which leave the OBERONS for dead.

Considering they were the first attempt by Australia to build submarines they have done as well as anyone. Submarine building isn't easy. The British (who famously welded a hull section on an SSN on upside down) and the Americans (who famously had to scrap an entire hull on an SSN because they did the welds badly) in the same period that we built the COLLINS.

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Unforgiven

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #34 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 1:14am

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 12:05am:

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2015 at 9:53pm:

The people likely to be working on Australian submarines manufactured in Australia are likely to be foreigners.

What if they gave a war and Australia did not come because the submarines were late and-or not seaworthy.

The Swedes are hardly renowned in the submarine business. They frequently report unidentified submarines in their waters and never catch one.

Which rather indicates just how difficult ASW is. The RN in the Falklands War fired large numbers of torpedoes, depth charges and mortar rounds at what they believed were Argentine submarines. ASW is more an "art" than a "science" in the minds of most naval planners. The COLLINS class are more silent underwater than the OBERONS that they replaced. They are one of the largest conventional powered submarines in the world today and they possess capabilities which leave the OBERONS for dead.

Considering they were the first attempt by Australia to build submarines they have done as well as anyone. Submarine building isn't easy. The British (who famously welded a hull section on an SSN on upside down) and the Americans (who famously had to scrap an entire hull on an SSN because they did the welds badly) in the same period that we built the COLLINS.

It appears the Russians and the Chinese are leading that technology. The Americans were unable to detect a Chinese submarine which surfaced in the middle of their fleet in recent war games.

Not to mention that Australia could not detect or find an aircraft which supposedly plunged into the Indian Ocean off Australia.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #35 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 3:56pm

The American Navy didn't detect the Chinese submarine because they weren't looking for a submarine. The USN had become rather lazy at that point after the end of the Cold War. The PLAN OTOH has been honing it's abilities. It won't happen again. What it demonstrated was that a submarine is an extremely difficult thing to detect underwater, particularly when you're not seriously looking for it. It, plus the Argentine submarines which were all in port during most of the Falkland Islands War, demonstrate the deterrence value of the submarine as a weapons system. It just has to be. It doesn't need to do anything. That is something critics like you who know basically stuff all about submarines miss all the time.

In case you missed it, the Indian Ocean is a very big patch of water and one which has been, until now, relatively unexplored. The search for MH370 is a completely different proposition compared to that of searching for a submarine.

I also note you have failed to address the letter that I posted. Why? Does it argue too well the case for the COLLINS and their replacements? Roll Eyes

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #36 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:05pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 6:44am:

Billy Jack wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 1:41am:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 1^st, 2015 at 11:35pm:

Quote:

There are many aspects that define a submarines effectiveness but above all, the submarine must be quiet. It owes it's existence to the fact that a very quiet submarine can virtually disappear.

That's nonsense -
the fact that a diesel submarine must send a snorkel to the surface for a long time every day
while running loud pinking diesel motors
to recharge the batteries is the weakness.

Unless we had nuclear subs that could stay under water for months then the enemy would easily find us.

I think in a real war we would lose all our subs very quickly.

Y'all don't know how it works friend.

Them subs have the same range as the Atlantic Ocean. Gitting from Sydney to Perth is the same distance, except round, not straight.

Them subs aint to be found anywhere friend, and diesels do mighty fine as attack subs. In any navy half them subs are being repaired and such while the other half is in action.

Our subs could operate well, despite their problems and do a lot of big ass damage if needed.

Within the USN net they would be even better friend. They be mighty fine.

So - you completely ignore the battery re-charging problem?

Nuclear subs also have a lot of pumps and stuff and these are hard to make silent. A diesel electric running on electric is much quieter.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #37 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:06pm

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2015 at 12:59am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 1^st, 2015 at 10:45pm:

"Wages in Thailand decreased to 13247.89 THB/Month in the first quarter of 2015 from 13581.10 THB/Month in the fourth quarter of 2014"

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/wages

http://themoneyconverter.com/THB/AUD.aspx

Now get real.......

A Thai makes 13,248 Baht a month = $509.12 AU

That's 509.12 x 12 / 52 per week = 26464.24 = about $99 a week max. Not bad.

Australian wages AWE is about 14 times that.... cost per submarine is only differing by around 5.5 times......

Are the Thais buying direct from China or buying parts and designs?

What is your argument? We can build submarines for ourselves cheaper here, less than half actual cost to the economy, than Thailand can for itself considering wage cost.

THAT, Grasshopper, is your yardstick - not some mythical 'global economy'. Then the payment to workers is absorbed back into OUR economy.. not someone else's.

Thanks for coming.

You want to trust your son or daughter's life to some Thai welder on $20 a day for a five day week?

Leave mine out!

Very wrong and very naive financial presentation.

In regard to Grappler's comment about Thai welders wages he is totally wrong. Skilled workers in all Asian countries earn many multiples of the average wage in that country.

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 1^st, 2015 at 11:22pm:

There are many aspects that define a submarines effectiveness but above all, the submarine must be quiet. It owes it's existence to the fact that a very quiet submarine can virtually disappear. If the opposition cannot find you, and you have the necessary fire-power to seriously hurt an aggressor, you create a very real deterrent. That is what our submarines are about. So what is this rubbish that we keep hearing about the Collins submarines being noisy? Nothing could be further from the truth. In the early days of the first boat, there were two noise issues, a poorly manufactured propeller and some water flow noise problems. These were both solved long ago and for many years, the boats have been exceptionally quiet. The noise levels are so low that it has been very difficult to find an area where we can measure their noise. The boats are quieter than the background noise in the ocean.

I bet they are very quiet when lying on the seabed with their engines broken down. The article quoted in the opening post of this string raised the issues of performance, availability and reliability and manning. Everything else is trivia.

Aha, so you wan' sen' you son a' dau'er into ba'le with Asian weld? You numbah ten...

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #38 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:25pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:05pm:

Nuclear subs also have a lot of pumps and stuff and these are hard to make silent. A diesel electric running on electric is much quieter.

Basically, yes. However, it must be acknowledged that a conventional powered submarine is much slower and has a shorter range. However, it comes with significantly fewer political, economic and environmental problems than a nuclear powered submarine. An AIP system powered submarines combines the advantages (can remain submerged for longer and has a greater range) of a nuclear submarine without all the problems associated with such a power source. The next generation submarine will more than likely have an AIP system.

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Bobby.

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #39 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:37pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:25pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:05pm:

Nuclear subs also have a lot of pumps and stuff and these are hard to make silent. A diesel electric running on electric is much quieter.

Basically, yes. However, it must be acknowledged that a conventional powered submarine is much slower and has a shorter range. However, it comes with significantly fewer political, economic and environmental problems than a nuclear powered submarine. An AIP system powered submarines combines the advantages (can remain submerged for longer and has a greater range) of a nuclear submarine without all the problems associated with such a power source. The next generation submarine will more than likely have an AIP system.

Dear Brian - if Air Independent Propulsion was so good
then the Yanks would never have built so many nuclear submarines.

you are forgiven

namaste

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Brian Ross

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #40 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 5:16pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:37pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:25pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:05pm:

Nuclear subs also have a lot of pumps and stuff and these are hard to make silent. A diesel electric running on electric is much quieter.

Basically, yes. However, it must be acknowledged that a conventional powered submarine is much slower and has a shorter range. However, it comes with significantly fewer political, economic and environmental problems than a nuclear powered submarine. An AIP system powered submarines combines the advantages (can remain submerged for longer and has a greater range) of a nuclear submarine without all the problems associated with such a power source. The next generation submarine will more than likely have an AIP system.

Dear Brian - if Air Independent Propulsion was so good
then the Yanks would never have built so many nuclear submarines.

I have a two word answer to your point, Sir Bobby: Admiral Rickover. Roll Eyes

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #41 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 5:51pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 5:16pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:37pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:25pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:05pm:

Nuclear subs also have a lot of pumps and stuff and these are hard to make silent. A diesel electric running on electric is much quieter.

Basically, yes. However, it must be acknowledged that a conventional powered submarine is much slower and has a shorter range. However, it comes with significantly fewer political, economic and environmental problems than a nuclear powered submarine. An AIP system powered submarines combines the advantages (can remain submerged for longer and has a greater range) of a nuclear submarine without all the problems associated with such a power source. The next generation submarine will more than likely have an AIP system.

Dear Brian - if Air Independent Propulsion was so good
then the Yanks would never have built so many nuclear submarines.

I have a two word answer to your point, Sir Bobby: Admiral Rickover. Roll Eyes

Hyman Rickover - the US Navy vowed never to have a Jewish Admiral again...

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Brian Ross

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #42 - Jul 4^th, 2015 at 6:22pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 5:51pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 5:16pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:37pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:25pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:05pm:

Nuclear subs also have a lot of pumps and stuff and these are hard to make silent. A diesel electric running on electric is much quieter.

Basically, yes. However, it must be acknowledged that a conventional powered submarine is much slower and has a shorter range. However, it comes with significantly fewer political, economic and environmental problems than a nuclear powered submarine. An AIP system powered submarines combines the advantages (can remain submerged for longer and has a greater range) of a nuclear submarine without all the problems associated with such a power source. The next generation submarine will more than likely have an AIP system.

Dear Brian - if Air Independent Propulsion was so good
then the Yanks would never have built so many nuclear submarines.

I have a two word answer to your point, Sir Bobby: Admiral Rickover. Roll Eyes

Hyman Rickover - the US Navy vowed never to have a Jewish Admiral again...

Except Rickover became an Episcopalian at the age of 31 and remained one for the rest of his life...

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #43 - Jul 5^th, 2015 at 8:07pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 6:22pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 5:51pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 5:16pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:37pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:25pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:05pm:

Nuclear subs also have a lot of pumps and stuff and these are hard to make silent. A diesel electric running on electric is much quieter.

Basically, yes. However, it must be acknowledged that a conventional powered submarine is much slower and has a shorter range. However, it comes with significantly fewer political, economic and environmental problems than a nuclear powered submarine. An AIP system powered submarines combines the advantages (can remain submerged for longer and has a greater range) of a nuclear submarine without all the problems associated with such a power source. The next generation submarine will more than likely have an AIP system.

Dear Brian - if Air Independent Propulsion was so good
then the Yanks would never have built so many nuclear submarines.

I have a two word answer to your point, Sir Bobby: Admiral Rickover. Roll Eyes

Hyman Rickover - the US Navy vowed never to have a Jewish Admiral again...

Except Rickover became an Episcopalian at the age of 31 and remained one for the rest of his life...

Yeah - but they never forgot his roots... man was brilliant, but well.. you know how that goes down sometimes... actually he gets a re-birth in my WW IV book as the man in charge of a fleet with no boats other than the nukes, since there was insufficient fuel, and the nukes had run dry since there was no fuel to build etc ..... and so the US Navy took over the flat-top train aircraft carriers used in the Continental US World War, and developed train battleships etc for its sailors sitting around playing mah-jong.

I like my series....

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Unforgiven

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #44 - Jul 5^th, 2015 at 9:11pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 8:07pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 6:22pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 5:51pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 5:16pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:37pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:25pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 4^th, 2015 at 4:05pm:

Nuclear subs also have a lot of pumps and stuff and these are hard to make silent. A diesel electric running on electric is much quieter.

Basically, yes. However, it must be acknowledged that a conventional powered submarine is much slower and has a shorter range. However, it comes with significantly fewer political, economic and environmental problems than a nuclear powered submarine. An AIP system powered submarines combines the advantages (can remain submerged for longer and has a greater range) of a nuclear submarine without all the problems associated with such a power source. The next generation submarine will more than likely have an AIP system.

Dear Brian - if Air Independent Propulsion was so good
then the Yanks would never have built so many nuclear submarines.

I have a two word answer to your point, Sir Bobby: Admiral Rickover. Roll Eyes

Hyman Rickover - the US Navy vowed never to have a Jewish Admiral again...

Except Rickover became an Episcopalian at the age of 31 and remained one for the rest of his life...

Yeah - but they never forgot his roots... man was brilliant, but well.. you know how that goes down sometimes... actually he gets a re-birth in my WW IV book as the man in charge of a fleet with no boats other than the nukes, since there was insufficient fuel, and the nukes had run dry since there was no fuel to build etc ..... and so the US Navy took over the flat-top train aircraft carriers used in the Continental US World War, and developed train battleships etc for its sailors sitting around playing mah-jong.

I like my series....

I hereby appoint you Admiral and give you charge of Australian Navy submarines.

Good luck.

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