Australian Politics Forum - Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35

President Elect, The Mechanic

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #60 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 7:02am

Bobby. wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 6:43am:

Quote:

I call bullshit...

forgiven

namaste

Quote:

#.8 Soryu class (Japan)

Entered service: 2009

Diving depth: ~ 250 m

Torpedo tubes: 6x533-mm

Weapons: Type 89 torpedoes, Sub-Harpoon anti-ship missiles.

The first Soryu class boat was commissioned with the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Forces in 2009. Unlike other nuclear-powered boats on this list the Soryu class submarines have diesel-electric propulsion. These attack submarines, fitted with air-independent propulsion system. Japan is the only country to use this class of boats.

Air-independent propulsion system allows to stay submerged for longer periods without surfacing to charge the batteries. Submerged endurance is increased from days to weeks. It also enhanced vessel's stealth and operational capabilities. However these submarines lack range and endurance of nuclear-powered attack submarines.

Soryu class submarines have hydrodynamic design and are fitted with anechoic coating. Interior also has sound isolation of loud components.

However these boats do not have vertical launch systems. Their armament is limited to Torpedoes and Sub-Harpoon anti-ship missiles.

you've been watching too many of those 1950s sub movies bobby...

get up with the times...

diesel-electric propulsion Sub in the TOP 10 attack submarines in the World... wow.. Shocked

right?

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 107236 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35 Reply #61 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 7:06am Quote: Air-independent propulsion. Japan is the only country to use this class of boats. forgiven namaste
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President Elect, The Mechanic

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #62 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 7:16am

and bobby...

do you even know how much money it'll cost to replace the Collins tubs?

do you know what it takes to go Nuclear?

the sea wolf is the best submarine in the world.. but not even the US can afford to build and maintain them.. so they went for a cheaper option..

we are staring down the barrel of a 60 Billion Dollar project...

and that's for a basic diesel electric to sink fake reffo boats...

so go Nuclear.. well... where do you even start?

Australia hasn't even begun to acquire the infrastructure or invest in the training needed to support nuclear powered submarines.... we haven't got a clue in that regards... so there is no point in even looking at Nuclear..

if we did... we'd be our own worst enemies.. BOOOM!!

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Bobby.

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #63 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 4:48pm

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 7:16am:

and bobby...

do you even know how much money it'll cost to replace the Collins tubs?

do you know what it takes to go Nuclear?

the sea wolf is the best submarine in the world.. but not even the US can afford to build and maintain them.. so they went for a cheaper option..

we are staring down the barrel of a 60 Billion Dollar project...

and that's for a basic diesel electric to sink fake reffo boats...

so go Nuclear.. well... where do you even start?

Australia hasn't even begun to acquire the infrastructure or invest in the training needed to support nuclear powered submarines.... we haven't got a clue in that regards... so there is no point in even looking at Nuclear..

if we did... we'd be our own worst enemies.. BOOOM!!

Would the Yanks sell us a few nuclear subs?

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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #64 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 4:58pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 4:48pm:

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 7:16am:

and bobby...

do you even know how much money it'll cost to replace the Collins tubs?

do you know what it takes to go Nuclear?

the sea wolf is the best submarine in the world.. but not even the US can afford to build and maintain them.. so they went for a cheaper option..

we are staring down the barrel of a 60 Billion Dollar project...

and that's for a basic diesel electric to sink fake reffo boats...

so go Nuclear.. well... where do you even start?

Australia hasn't even begun to acquire the infrastructure or invest in the training needed to support nuclear powered submarines.... we haven't got a clue in that regards... so there is no point in even looking at Nuclear..

if we did... we'd be our own worst enemies.. BOOOM!!

Would the Yanks sell us a few nuclear subs?

No

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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Unforgiven

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #65 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 5:18pm

Australia only wants to play submarines. The real thing is too much.

Navy should just buy a big hot tub and some plastic submarines and the admirals can play submarines together.

If Australia wants real submarines they need a lot of infrastructure around Australia and some Navy personnel who are prepared to spend weeks, if not months at sea. It won't happen. Australian naval personnel are too soft and pampered.

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Bobby.

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #66 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 5:26pm

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 5:18pm:

Australia only wants to play submarines. The real thing is too much.

Navy should just buy a big hot tub and some plastic submarines and the admirals can play submarines together.

If Australia wants real submarines they need a lot of infrastructure around Australia and some Navy personnel who are prepared to spend weeks, if not months at sea. It won't happen. Australian naval personnel are too soft and pampered.

What about the Gaffa tape on Longy's fibro house -

that would make a good submarine.

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Unforgiven

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #67 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 5:52pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 5:26pm:

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 5:18pm:

Australia only wants to play submarines. The real thing is too much.

Navy should just buy a big hot tub and some plastic submarines and the admirals can play submarines together.

If Australia wants real submarines they need a lot of infrastructure around Australia and some Navy personnel who are prepared to spend weeks, if not months at sea. It won't happen. Australian naval personnel are too soft and pampered.

What about the Gaffa tape on Longy's fibro house -

that would make a good submarine.

Longfellow could be gaffa taped and used as a torpedo propelled by anus gas.

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President Elect, The Mechanic

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #68 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 6:27pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 4:48pm:

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 7:16am:

and bobby...

do you even know how much money it'll cost to replace the Collins tubs?

do you know what it takes to go Nuclear?

the sea wolf is the best submarine in the world.. but not even the US can afford to build and maintain them.. so they went for a cheaper option..

we are staring down the barrel of a 60 Billion Dollar project...

and that's for a basic diesel electric to sink fake reffo boats...

so go Nuclear.. well... where do you even start?

Australia hasn't even begun to acquire the infrastructure or invest in the training needed to support nuclear powered submarines.... we haven't got a clue in that regards... so there is no point in even looking at Nuclear..

if we did... we'd be our own worst enemies.. BOOOM!!

Would the Yanks sell us a few nuclear subs?

in case you missed my point..

we're broke and can't even afford a clapped out Diesel Electric let alone Nuclear subs...

Labor/Green coalition put us into massive debt borrowing 100 million dollars a day.. .

Labor/Green coalition are blocking austerity measures so we are still borrowing 100 million dollars a day...

we are not far off being another Greece...

if we were to build our own subs i'd take 8 years just to draft up the blueprints... and get this.. we don't have anyone in Australia that can do that job..

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Brian Ross

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #69 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 7:39pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 6:20am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 12:17am:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 6^th, 2015 at 7:34am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 11:57pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 5^th, 2015 at 10:59pm:

Why can't we think laterally?

How about a few satellites to monitor all enemy shipping -
& an advanced air to ship attack capability to
destroy any ship invading us?

Why do we need submarines?

Bobby, anti-submarine warfare is what nearly destroyed the British and did destroy the Japanese in WWII. Unrestricted submarine warfare is deadly. The mere presence of submarines in the Falklands forced the Argentines to retreat to port and nearly forced the Royal Navy to abandon it's effort to retake the Islands. In every war where submarines have been used, they have proved to be effective and combating them time consuming and expensive. Any potential aggressor against us must invest heavily in ASW assets and practice to defeat our submarines. QED. Roll Eyes

But that was in 1980 -

technology has advanced now - air power is orders of magnitude stronger.

It has advanced on both sides of the equation, Bobby. Submarines are quieter, dive deeper and patrol further. ASW assets can listen better, but still can't automatically detect a submarine. Ships are vulnerable to longer ranged torpedoes and missiles launched from submarines. There is no certainty in ASW, Bobby. You have to hear the submarine and destroy it before it destroys you. The ocean is vast and deep and somewhere in it might be a submarine. Are you willing to chance sending a ship out against it? Roll Eyes

Diesel subs might dive deeper but they have to come to the surface every day to take on air & run their diesel motors to recharge their batteries.
This makes them vulnerable to attack from the air.

Except of course, in reality they don't. They can use a Snorkel to run their diesel motors while submerged, more advanced ones use Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) to allow them to remain submerged for weeks, Bobby. They use Oxygen rebreather systems to keep the air fresh for the crew during that time.

Time you caught up with the early 21st century and stopped watching old Hollywood movies as your main source of information. Technology has improved SSK submarines to the point where they are in some ways more effective than SSN submarines (they are quieter but lack the range and speed submerged of the SSNs). Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #70 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 7:42pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 4:48pm:

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 7:16am:

and bobby...

do you even know how much money it'll cost to replace the Collins tubs?

do you know what it takes to go Nuclear?

the sea wolf is the best submarine in the world.. but not even the US can afford to build and maintain them.. so they went for a cheaper option..

we are staring down the barrel of a 60 Billion Dollar project...

and that's for a basic diesel electric to sink fake reffo boats...

so go Nuclear.. well... where do you even start?

Australia hasn't even begun to acquire the infrastructure or invest in the training needed to support nuclear powered submarines.... we haven't got a clue in that regards... so there is no point in even looking at Nuclear..

if we did... we'd be our own worst enemies.. BOOOM!!

Would the Yanks sell us a few nuclear subs?

The boat builders would like to but I suspect the US Government would be reluctant to do so.

Even if they did, we would beholden to them to maintain and refuel the submarines we purchased. As Mechanic has pointed out, we lack the skills and the infrastructure to either build or maintain nuclear submarines.

Purchasing them would double the cost of the submarine replacement program, Bobby. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #71 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 7:48pm

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 6:27pm:

in case you missed my point..

we're broke and can't even afford a clapped out Diesel Electric let alone Nuclear subs...

No, we can afford Diesel powered submarines. Australia is far from broke. We are a long way from the Greek predicament.

Quote:

Labor/Green coalition put us into massive debt borrowing 100 million dollars a day.. .

And how much is the Liberal Government borrowing at the moment, Mechanic? More! Roll Eyes

Quote:

Labor/Green coalition are blocking austerity measures so we are still borrowing 100 million dollars a day...

we are not far off being another Greece...

We have massive amounts of cash in the bank, our banks are liquid with it. Greece has little cash and it shows. The ALP and Greens have acted responsibility in opposing unnecessary austerity measures while the fat cats keep there money under the Liberal Government. Roll Eyes

Quote:

if we were to build our own subs i'd take 8 years just to draft up the blueprints... and get this.. we don't have anyone in Australia that can do that job..

Actually we do. In Adelaide. They work for the Australian Submarine Corporation, Mechanic.

As much as you attempt to bag Australia and it's economy, the reality is that we are actually quite healthy and we have the expertise to build these submarines, despite everything you and the Tories might claim. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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President Elect, The Mechanic

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #72 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 8:01pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 7:48pm:

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 6:27pm:

in case you missed my point..

we're broke and can't even afford a clapped out Diesel Electric let alone Nuclear subs...

No, we can afford Diesel powered submarines. Australia is far from broke. We are a long way from the Greek predicament.

Quote:

Labor/Green coalition put us into massive debt borrowing 100 million dollars a day.. .

And how much is the Liberal Government borrowing at the moment, Mechanic? More! Roll Eyes

Quote:

Labor/Green coalition are blocking austerity measures so we are still borrowing 100 million dollars a day...

we are not far off being another Greece...

We have massive amounts of cash in the bank, our banks are liquid with it. Greece has little cash and it shows. The ALP and Greens have acted responsibility in opposing unnecessary austerity measures while the fat cats keep there money under the Liberal Government. Roll Eyes

Quote:

if we were to build our own subs i'd take 8 years just to draft up the blueprints... and get this.. we don't have anyone in Australia that can do that job..

Actually we do. In Adelaide. They work for the Australian Submarine Corporation, Mechanic.

As much as you attempt to bag Australia and it's economy, the reality is that we are actually quite healthy and we have the expertise to build these submarines, despite everything you and the Tories might claim. Roll Eyes

I am positive that I read that we don't have anyone here in Australia who can design a new sub... I stand corrected if that's wrong..

I guess we "can't afford" not to have a few as there's subs all over our shipping lanes..

if someone wanted to take us down big time... they'd blow our import ships out of the water... thank god we still produce some of our own food..

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President Elect, The Mechanic

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #73 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 8:12pm

Quote:

in his conference speech, Professor Thomas Mahnken of the US Naval War College contended that the most important characteristic of our future submarine would be “interoperability”. What he meant was that Australia should regard the ability to work with the US Navy as the most important consideration.
This may mean we can only partner with the Swedes, building on what’s been learnt from working with their former submarine designer Kockums on the Collins Class subs. This is because the US has already allowed some of its submarine technology and data, among the most tightly held defence technology in the world, to be incorporated into the Collins, something they’re extremely reluctant to allow with other builders.

The more speeches I heard, the clearer it seemed that there is a looming contradiction between Australia’s oft-stated goal of regional technological superiority in defence and our decreasing investment in training and research. Defence capability is a complex, high-order expression of a nation’s scientific and technical strength – it’s not something that can just be bolted onto a shaky educational and research foundation. Changes to higher education funding, which may make engineering degrees very expensive, will further hollow out this capability. Currently we do not even have enough draughtsmen to produce technical drawings for submarine design.

hmmmm

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Bobby.

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Re: Australian submarines $1.7 billion Chinese $0.35
Reply #74 - Jul 7^th, 2015 at 8:42pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 7:42pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 4:48pm:

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Jul 7^th, 2015 at 7:16am:

and bobby...

do you even know how much money it'll cost to replace the Collins tubs?

do you know what it takes to go Nuclear?

the sea wolf is the best submarine in the world.. but not even the US can afford to build and maintain them.. so they went for a cheaper option..

we are staring down the barrel of a 60 Billion Dollar project...

and that's for a basic diesel electric to sink fake reffo boats...

so go Nuclear.. well... where do you even start?

Australia hasn't even begun to acquire the infrastructure or invest in the training needed to support nuclear powered submarines.... we haven't got a clue in that regards... so there is no point in even looking at Nuclear..

if we did... we'd be our own worst enemies.. BOOOM!!

Would the Yanks sell us a few nuclear subs?

The boat builders would like to but I suspect the US Government would be reluctant to do so.

Even if they did, we would beholden to them to maintain and refuel the submarines we purchased. As Mechanic has pointed out, we lack the skills and the infrastructure to either build or maintain nuclear submarines.

Purchasing them would double the cost of the submarine replacement program, Bobby. Roll Eyes

Yes - actually the Yanks are a bit strange about selling us their weapons.
They buried the F117 stealth planes in the desert - destroyed them -
rather than sell them to us.

http://www.urbanghostsmedia.com/2013/01/top-secret-aircraft-classified-stealth-b...

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