Re Baronvonrort

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Right... just like a homocidal moderates would do.... Except, Taliban was supported by the CIA... part of cold war effort against Soviet Russia.  If anything, by your definition, the leftist should be furious about Taliban.      

Let me make it easy for you.  Show me an evidence of leftist parade in support of the former Taliban.  Otherwise, another infantile statement. 

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Right, and when ISIL is attacking, killing and raping, there is much rights in Kurdish Iraq for women you think?   There are good interventions and there are bad interventions.   And if history is of any guidance, the continued cycle of war, political instability, sanctions, foreign intervention, - are not the answers to better rights for women.   It does not happen in reality, and only occurs in Hollywood movies. 

Even our own history of equality of rights are marred with violence dating back all the way to Peasants revolt in England, and it took literally many generations to reach the stage of where we are now.  Dame Pansi just stated the obvious reality. 

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Again, another attempt at confusing the issue.  Resolution 1973 is about setting up a no fly zone to protect civilians against Libyan military force.  It had nothing to do with left wing or right wing ideology.   It was an emergency humanitarian crisis at the time.   And I remember, reading Australia providing aids to conflict zones in Libya in this regard - mind you, we all know how our current right wing government feel about foreign aid. 

Anyway, what I do not agree with, is that the same Resolution 1973 (previously 1970) was used by certain countries in the world, to arm the opposition, so much so, that the Libyan regime was toppled, plunging the region into a power vacuum, as now, we have elements of ISIL and Al Q operating there.   Terrible, terrible situation.  Women and children forced to flee to Europe.  There is no rights when you are a wandering refugee. 

re Freediver:

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Really, better rights for women.  Well, may be for you, or may be it came off from a very low base.  The reality is that its no where as rosie.  Perhaps, in the capitals cities, but out in the wilds of Afghanistan, its still pretty bad.  Hell, even health workers gets killed for providing immunization. 

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/23/asia/afghanistan-woman-killed/

No Freediver, may be the official position of the government had changed, but the actual change on the ground will take many more years, if not decades to change. 

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I dont see it that way.   Culture warrior said, the green and labor party want ISIL to take over.  Which is blatantly untrue.   And if even you think ISIL flourished because they hate western value, then you are ignoring the reality on the ground.    And of course, Pansi pointed out rightly that it is not the case, and that the situation is far more complicated than just ISIL.   In fact, if you educate yourself, you will find that ISIL is not just one organization.  The ISIL now, have ISIL at its core, but also many other regional warlords in support of ISIL due to the Geo political instability occurred after second Gulf war, and as well as situation in Syria.   If you read more, you will know that even Muslims themselves from those area - namely refugees and civilians are disillusioned about their violent ways. 

Now stating the obvious is not about spineless.   And people like you seemed to think that just because you are a right wing persuasion, every other different opinion is left wing and wrong. 

Pansi did not come to defend or wish for a state who want to execute gays.  Its not even an issue in the middle East.  Right now, its about getting the region stabilized with a more moderate government, give the people at least some kind of peace and security.  And then worry about better woman's and gay rights later on, when the population are bit more wealthy, and better educated.   This is a more realistic approach.  The right wing approach of destroy everything, and rebuild, only lead to one failed state after another, and one fake democracy after another.    And having this view, is not the same as condoning killing. 

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See, again, you taking this out of context.    The statement was made in response to Baron's ridiculous assertion that leftist loved the Taliban.   I was just attacking the consistency of his statement.  So are you saying that the Rightist love the Taliban now?  May be you should take it up with Baron.

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Well, perhaps may be you should re-evaluate and be less childish.  The world is not just fill of bad people and good people. It is fill with groups and people from different shades of grey.   To hope of for more moderate governance in that region of chaos, does not mean they are natural friends.  They could be a temporary ally, and its may change in the future, who knows.   Throughout history, we see allies become friends, friends become enemies, and then back friends again. 

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Which Australian moderates are promoting the execution of gays?  Where? when?  And please, dont quote the passage of such and such, because you can find similar passages in the bible as well.   

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Well, we definitely cant reach where we are now if not for the progressives of the society.  The women would still be oppressed, the poor will still not have the voting rights, children will still be working in sweat shops, and we will not have universal health care that looks after everyone.

re Freediver

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From my perspective, because it came from a very low base, I just do not see the fundamentals of women's rights improve in those areas.  At least not for a decade or more.    I do not believe in miracles.   This however, does not mean that I prefer they were kept at (that way). 

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  Before the second gulf war, Iraq was ruled by an iron fist.  Post war, there was a power vaccuum and chaos.   The Iraqi army was literally destroyed by the US coalition.   And even now, the Iraq army alone was inadequate against ISIL and its regional allies.   Even foreign contractors working in Iraq, do so in Greenzones mainly.   The flow of money from oil and reconstruction goes to major centres only.  So the bulk of the population in smaller regional centres were largely left to fend for themselves.   

ISIL are very well funded, and armed.  And their allies in Syria also had assistances from USA.   So what can an average citizen in those area do?  If you even seem as antagonizing, you get shot / beheaded. 

And secondly what is democracy?  It is easy for you Freediver, to say something about Democracy handed on a platter.  But in order for democracy to really work, it requires political stability, it requires a strong middle class swing voting basis, it requires a stable economy.  All of which are missing in the middle east at the moment. 

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No, this is absolutely false.  Pansi supports tens of thousands of other Australian Muslims, who are law abiding citizens, and contributing members of society.   Who are equally appalled at the violence perpertrated by ISIL.  Who are just everyday people with normal jobs like: doctors, nurses, police officers, students, etc etc.   We disagree with people trying to marginalize these good people in our society, and there by creating more suffering, and more un-necessary violence.   We disagree with impingement on our civil liberties through fear.   Because if we start to do all these as a society, then Freediver.... the ISIL had already won. 

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No, Pansi said that (in response to "I know the Greens and some in the Labor party would love IS to take over, given they both hate Western civilisation" by freediver - so keep it in context), that what we believe ISIL fighters, cannot be viewed as under one banner.  As I mentioned before, this is true because ISIL of today are made up also of many regional warlords / powers.    And that some fighters may do a runner when confronted (which is also true).  And perhaps more people began to recognize the violence, then they will be marginalized just as Al Q did in Iraq.   

Now, to analyse the situation in reality, does not mean leftist support homicidal moderates.    It is you who are confusing the issue, and trying to frame your narrow logic on others. 

Culture Warrior

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I know the Greens and some in the Labor party would love IS to take over, given they both hate Western civilisation.

Lefties come from every where to defend radicals,

Pansi1951

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No they don't.

Lefties defend mainstream Muslims that are getting on with life, working, struggling to pay rent or mortgage, bringing up their children, going to their mosque (if the practice their faith) and so they should.

I still believe you can follow Islam without committing murder and mayhem.

If you choose to confuse moderate and mainstream with radicals/fanatics/terrorists that's your problem freediver.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 10^th, 2015 at 8:29am:




Yes, their fear will break them down long before the Muzzie 'terrorists' get them.

greggerypeccary wrote on Jul 10^th, 2015 at 10:06am:



....but, just a little bit funny too 

re Freediver

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Thats not what I was saying.   Seeing, and saying how things are, does not mean condoning it.

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Sometimes, a small boat can only do so much against a strong current.

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You and I have very different opinion of political instability.  I usually go with the definition as set out on Global peace index, or even the CIA one.   But nevertheless, for simplicity, I will substitute the words political stability, with rule of law. 

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Well, it never stopped people from the right doing the exact same before   For example, the West had supported the Taliban against the Russians (and you yourself had asked me before, would I rather see Russia win....) , they are not that kind to gays or woman.   The West also supported Saddam Hussein, who is no friend to Gays and Women either.    Then we went to war with Iraq, to support Kuwait, what are their homosexual laws?  And what about Iraq Kurdish, from what I heard, they did not exactly have a good track record on gay and women's right either.   We are also supporting the Free Syrian opposition forces, and some of them were allies to ISIL!

Ultimately Freediver, through my experiences, I believe there is a big difference between how individuals treat other, and how a country deal with another country/group.  In an individual scale, I believe, we should treat everyone equally with respect regardless of religion, or race - this means stop saying silly things like Leftist support homicidal moderates.     On a country / global scale, its much more complicated.  Sometimes, in order to achieve peace and security for its citizens, or to reach a certain political goal, heartless to say that often, its at the expense of individual rights of the small people. 

People on the left and centre, had always wanted to reduce un-neccessary wars, and promote change through peaceful means.   To create change through means of war and conflict, will only promote more suffering to the people, and further marginalize vulnerable minorities.  This is a reality that we had seen repeated again and again for thousands of years.