Are you telling the truth now, FD? You won’t say.

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He wouldn't answer my question. I think he is more representative of Muslims on this point than you are, and you might have some insight into why Muslims won't discuss it. But if it helps, I will make it about you. Why are you so reluctant to talk about how Muhammed erred?

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What is the difference Gandalf?

Given that Muslims are now lining up POWs and executing them, just like Muhammed did, don't you think it is important for Muslims to have that talk about how specifically Muhammed was fallible? So far all we have is silly platitudes like "the best of men," "an eternal example for all mankind to follow," and "not infallible, but the only mistake we can talk about is the one God pulled him up on". (Which one was that, BTW?) Otherwise you will have great difficulty arguing that Islam is not responsible for all these atrocities committed in it's name.

FD you realise wally is not a muslim right?

freediver wrote on Jul 19^th, 2015 at 6:39pm:


Yes FD, I get this entire inquisition is to force an admission from me that executing the Banu Qurayza was a bad thing. The problem is, neither of us believe it was a mistake do we? So why are we even talking about this episode in the context of Muhammad erring?

freediver wrote on Jul 19^th, 2015 at 6:39pm:


The thing is, you pose these questions as if we have a perfectly clear and unbroken record of his entire life. The truth is he lived over 1400 years ago, and we are relying entirely on biographies and anecdotes (ahadith) - virtually all written by people who were big fans of the prophet. So how many "mistakes" do you think are actually recorded? I can't think of any, though I'm far from anything resembling an expert on ahadith literature. Its possible there are some specific mistakes he made that were recorded, but I can't say I know of any.

And yes, I was talking about Quran 66:1-5.

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But again, no one is saying the most controversial actions of The Prophet were "mistakes" are they? This is not about you wanting us to fess up about Muhammad's errors of judgment, you just want us to declare that he was a racist homicidal maniac.

One of the biggest mistake by muslims, imo, is to search for a prophetic example to dictate how they should conduct themselves in every conceivable tiny detail of their life. As I have argued previously (you know those 'reform' posts of mine you never heard of)  the point of Islam is to guide muslims in general ways that give flexibility to adjust to different times and places, not specific and inflexible ways that are only practical in specific and obscure circumstances. Thats how the Quran makes sense - it gives very little in the way of details on specific conduct or laws, but rather deals in universal generalities. And there's a very good reason for that - namely that Islam was never meant just for Arabia in the 7th century. But not only this, and perhaps more significantly, is the fact that the Quran constantly challenges muslims to think critically and work things out for themselves.

God thats a stupid way to reply FD.

Annie was right - I think I'll just boycott that idiotic posting format, maybe then you'll learn to reply properly.

Trust me K, FD saying nothing makes far more sense than the crap he offers me. Exhibit A - his last post.

So basically, Muhammed erred in a trivial sense, but only one of his mistakes was written down. So as far as the Muhammed of historical record goes, he is in fact an eternal example for all mankind to follow. The only examples to be ignored are the ones you don't know about. You just have to be a bit cunning in interpreting all the rape and pillage?

And this only took 14 pages.

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Are you trying to disagree with me?

Because it only applies to the Muhammed we know about, rather than to the Muhammed that was lost to history?

And because you have to be cunning in interpreting all the rape and pillage bits?

So the 'eternal example' thing is overstated, but as far as Muslims know Muhammed never did anything wrong, except for that one time where Muhammed said God admonished him for not having enough sex?