Australian Politics Forum - did Muhammed err?

polite_gandalf

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Re: did Muhammed err?
Reply #255 - Jul 24^th, 2015 at 10:03am

freediver wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2015 at 11:27pm:

How do you know they did not include something in the belief it was a good thing when in fact it was a bad thing?

Its not some secret code FD - anyone is free to read the sources and make up their own minds as to what they consider a good thing and bad thing. Its in the eye of the beholder no?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: did Muhammed err?
Reply #256 - Jul 24^th, 2015 at 4:17pm

I have made up my own mind Gandalf. It is the logic I am questioning here.

You somehow go from Muhammed, who was the best of men, but who erred despite this, to a historical record of Muhammed that is perfection in the sense that there are no unacknowledged mistakes, by filtering the information through the minds of lesser men who were biased.

What exactly was their bias Gandalf?

What are you putting your faith in here?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: did Muhammed err?
Reply #257 - Jul 24^th, 2015 at 5:40pm

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2015 at 4:17pm:

You somehow go from Muhammed, who was the best of men, but who erred despite this

no, not "despite" this. All men err. If you believe he is infallible then you are creating equals to God. A man - even 'the best' of men is by its very definition fallible.

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2015 at 4:17pm:

hat are you putting your faith in here?

I have detailed at length how I personally take the ahadith with a grain of salt anyway. You know all those reform posts you never heard of. It is good enough for me to take guidance from the recorded actions that directly support the guidance of the Quran. And before you jump in, I am not aware of any actions that directly run counter to the Quran.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: did Muhammed err?
Reply #258 - Jul 24^th, 2015 at 8:39pm

So the Jew slaughtering incident does not run counter to the Koran and thus you take it for guidance? How does this make you any different?

Also, you still haven't explained how all these biased men managed to filter the historical record of an imperfect man into one of perfection. Taking their stories with a grain of salt means you doubt their ability to do this, yet you still insist they succeeded. There is a missing step in there somewhere Gandalf.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96333	Re: did Muhammed err? Reply #259 - Jul 24^th, 2015 at 8:45pm And one of these days, FD, you’ll wring it out of him. Hogan! One of these days...
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polite_gandalf

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Re: did Muhammed err?
Reply #260 - Jul 24^th, 2015 at 9:32pm

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2015 at 8:39pm:

Also, you still haven't explained how all these biased men managed to filter the historical record of an imperfect man into one of perfection.

No I haven't. Maybe because I don't believe they did.

Not sure how many different ways I need to say muslims don't believe Muhammad was perfect.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: did Muhammed err?
Reply #261 - Jul 24^th, 2015 at 9:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 24^th, 2015 at 9:32pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2015 at 8:39pm:

Also, you still haven't explained how all these biased men managed to filter the historical record of an imperfect man into one of perfection.

No I haven't. Maybe because I don't believe they did.

Not sure how many different ways I need to say muslims don't believe Muhammad was perfect.

Are you speaking for ALL Muslisms?? Do hey know/agree? How do YOU know?

What were some of his imperfections that you are allowed to identify?

Can you make jokes about those imperfections - jokes are about imperfections, by definition - without your fellow Muslims murdering you?

Please explain.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: did Muhammed err? Reply #262 - Jul 24^th, 2015 at 9:52pm Soren wrote on Jul 24^th, 2015 at 9:47pm: Please explain Muslims don't believe any human being was perfect. How do I make that clearer?
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: did Muhammed err? Reply #263 - Jul 24^th, 2015 at 9:55pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 24^th, 2015 at 9:52pm: Soren wrote on Jul 24^th, 2015 at 9:47pm: Please explain Muslims don't believe any human being was perfect. How do I make that clearer? Tell us about Mohammed's imperfections. I dare you to spell out how he was not perfect.
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freediver

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Re: did Muhammed err?
Reply #264 - Jul 25^th, 2015 at 8:48am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 24^th, 2015 at 9:32pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2015 at 8:39pm:

Also, you still haven't explained how all these biased men managed to filter the historical record of an imperfect man into one of perfection.

No I haven't. Maybe because I don't believe they did.

Not sure how many different ways I need to say muslims don't believe Muhammad was perfect.

What about the historical record or Muhammed's actions?

Are there any errors in it - ie did Muhammed do all the things they say he did?

Are there any of Muhammed's 'human mistakes' recorded in the record?

I believe we have established the latter, but maybe you were talking about the former. If it is the latter, how do you go from an imperfect man who made mistakes to a historical record that does not contain any mistakes by filtering it through the bias of lesser men?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: did Muhammed err?
Reply #265 - Jul 25^th, 2015 at 10:06am

FD you are more than welcome to look through the sources yourself and let me know what you come up with. I look forward to be educated.

freediver wrote on Jul 25^th, 2015 at 8:48am:

how do you go from an imperfect man who made mistakes to a historical record that does not contain any mistakes by filtering it through the bias of lesser men?

I've gone over this question about 5 times and still can't make sense of it.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49308 At my desk.	Re: did Muhammed err? Reply #266 - Jul 25^th, 2015 at 10:44am Muhammed made mistakes. None of those mistakes were recorded in the Koran and Hadith. How did this happen?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: did Muhammed err? Reply #267 - Jul 25^th, 2015 at 11:19am Firstly you are wrong. Secondly Im sure there are many historical figures who have unblemished records - do we assume they were therefore perfect? No.
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Karnal

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Re: did Muhammed err?
Reply #268 - Jul 25^th, 2015 at 1:43pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 25^th, 2015 at 10:06am:

freediver wrote on Jul 25^th, 2015 at 8:48am:

how do you go from an imperfect man who made mistakes to a historical record that does not contain any mistakes by filtering it through the bias of lesser men?

I've gone over this question about 5 times and still can't make sense of it.

It’s about the sex slaves. Or his underage bride. Or that Jew and his gold. Either/or.

Sometimes a question is just a question, innit.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49308 At my desk.	Re: did Muhammed err? Reply #269 - Jul 25^th, 2015 at 4:08pm What am I wrong about Gandalf?
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Poll
Question: Quran 66/1-5 context
Gandalf is right it's about honey 3 (42.9%) Baron is right it's about banging his slave 4 (57.1%) Total votes: 7 « Created by: Baronvonrort on: Jul 7^th, 2015 at 6:17pm »