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Treachery thy name is beliefs... (Read 1330 times)
Phemanderac
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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #15 - Jul 7th, 2015 at 4:11pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 7:32pm:
Do you understand the distinction between motivation and excuse/justification?


I do, are you at all aware of the common denominator though?
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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

"They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean..
 
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Phemanderac
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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #16 - Jul 7th, 2015 at 4:17pm
 
issuevoter wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 10:59pm:
Phemanderac wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 4:14pm:
Or... Do you think the Christian religion has examples encouraging people to commit heinous acts?


This is one of the stock-standard arguments of apologists for, and defenders of Islam. It is relativism and is not of much use to anyone. It is true that Christianity has been used in this way, the IRA and Protestants in Ireland come to mind. But that does not change the reality of so called world wide Jihad since the 1990s which kills people in the street when ever it gets the chance. By comparison Christian violence looks like kindergarten. And as I have said before, you will change your tune when someone close to you becomes a victim of Islam.


That's not a "defense" it is merely a question...

Further to that, I have not defended or justified abhorrent behaviour regardless of the excuse that it has occurred under...

Relativism, just by the by, is a two way street, ironically, the slathering detractors of all things Islamic are some of the greatest practitioners of relativism... Or did you not realise that when you made your error?

People will stoop to any available excuse they believe that they can manipulate to justify the unjustifiable.

ALL acts of terrorism are acts of base evil, there is no distinction here, ALL acts - and the individual is, ultimately responsible, because it is the individual who chose to act...

I am amazed that people who profess to be adults have absolutely zero understanding of how they make choices.... As if it is someone else's responsibility.

The reality of world wide jihad eh?

Curious thing that, Jihad first became an issue of violent significance during the Crusades, irony is a beautiful thing is it not?
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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

"They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean..
 
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freediver
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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #17 - Jul 7th, 2015 at 9:35pm
 
Phemanderac wrote on Jul 7th, 2015 at 4:11pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 7:32pm:
Do you understand the distinction between motivation and excuse/justification?


I do, are you at all aware of the common denominator though?


Correlation is not causation Phem. Let me guess, they share this "common denominator" with people who also refrain from rape and pillage?

Back to the original question - is Islam the motivation for these people joining the rape and pillage festival, or just an excuse?
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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Phemanderac
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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #18 - Jul 8th, 2015 at 9:09am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 7th, 2015 at 9:35pm:
Phemanderac wrote on Jul 7th, 2015 at 4:11pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 7:32pm:
Do you understand the distinction between motivation and excuse/justification?


I do, are you at all aware of the common denominator though?


Correlation is not causation Phem. Let me guess, they share this "common denominator" with people who also refrain from rape and pillage?


Close, in point of fact, we ALL share this common denominator, however, this entire debate revolves around our inability to own and take responsibility for it. In fact, and possibly worse, you (and a few others) assist those in not taking responsibility by validating their excuses....

I wonder if that gets you any closer to the correct answer....

It is one simple word really.

As to your question you keep returning to, I answered it, even as the double bunger (tautology) version you used....

One simple word, that's all you need to come up with. Good luck with the challenge.
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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

"They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean..
 
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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #19 - Jul 8th, 2015 at 9:41am
 
I think you've got it backwards. 

When someone has true beliefs to anchor them, they are far less likely to be swayed by silly propaganda.  People without beliefs of their own can be made to support anything.  They are empty vessels just waiting to be filled. 

This applies equally to westerners whos only "belief" is whatever drum the media is beating at the time, as it does to dirt poor arabs who are convinced to blow themselves up in the name of Allah.
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In the fullness of time...
 
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Yadda
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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #20 - Jul 8th, 2015 at 9:55am
 


Each one of us [every human being], responds to the motivating influences which we are exposed to.

And in turn, we 'give power' [in the world] to those motivating influences, which we choose to be influenced by.

[And those motivating influences also have an influence upon our psyche, imo]

And because we [persons] act and make choices in this world [based upon motivating influences which we have 'chosen'], those motivating influences which we choose to pursue [in the world], must, and do, have a material effect upon our immediate surroundings [in this world].



And this effect [of the influences we choose to 'give power' to], is the same, for the many different cultures of man, around the world.

Each [different] nation around the world [AND THE PARTICULAR 'CULTURE' OF THEIR PEOPLES] have been influenced [throughout their history], by the predominant motivating influences which each different culture has chosen to embrace,      and chosen to give their 'power' [in the world] to.




We are the victims of our surroundings, but also, we are the victims of our own nature [and in consequence, WE WILL BE THE 'VICTIMS' OUR OWN GOOD OR POOR CHOICES].

Throughout our lives, the things [and the influences which] we choose, will have a significant influence upon our surroundings [and 'circumstances'].



.



Matthew 12:35
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.


Luke 6:43
For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
44  For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
45  A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #21 - Jul 8th, 2015 at 9:56am
 
... wrote on Jul 8th, 2015 at 9:41am:
I think you've got it backwards. 

When someone has true beliefs to anchor them, they are far less likely to be swayed by silly propaganda.

People without beliefs of their own can be made to support anything.

They are empty vessels just waiting to be filled. 


This applies equally to westerners whos only "belief" is whatever drum the media is beating at the time, as it does to dirt poor arabs who are convinced to blow themselves up in the name of Allah.




No argument!
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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Phemanderac
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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #22 - Jul 8th, 2015 at 4:42pm
 
... wrote on Jul 8th, 2015 at 9:41am:
When someone has true beliefs


As opposed to when someone has false beliefs?

Who is the arbiter of what is true and what is false with regards to beliefs?

Beliefs, by their very nature and reliance on "faith" are not necessarily based in truth. Therein lieth the problem with beliefs. Even in the face of solid evidence the "true believers" will maintain their position and deride, ridicule, denounce, lie and smear those whose facts may undermine their "beliefs"....

There are beliefs and there are truths and they are by no means consistently on the same page...
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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

"They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean..
 
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Phemanderac
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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #23 - Jul 8th, 2015 at 4:45pm
 
... wrote on Jul 8th, 2015 at 9:41am:
People without beliefs of their own can be made to support anything.  They are empty vessels just waiting to be filled. 


That would be filled by someone else's beliefs, which they then adopt as their own...

Seriously, is there something wrong with just having ideas and then exploring their validity?
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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

"They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean..
 
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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #24 - Jul 8th, 2015 at 5:22pm
 
Phemanderac wrote on Jul 8th, 2015 at 4:45pm:
Seriously, is there something wrong with just having ideas and then exploring their validity?


Absolutely not, but you may find something very wrong if you dare speak your findings out loud. 

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In the fullness of time...
 
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issuevoter
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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #25 - Jul 8th, 2015 at 8:53pm
 
... wrote on Jul 8th, 2015 at 9:41am:
I think you've got it backwards. 

When someone has true beliefs to anchor them, they are far less likely to be swayed by silly propaganda.  People without beliefs of their own can be made to support anything.  They are empty vessels just waiting to be filled. 

This applies equally to westerners whos only "belief" is whatever drum the media is beating at the time, as it does to dirt poor arabs who are convinced to blow themselves up in the name of Allah.


But one has to acknowledge that those Muslims who have been ready to kill people in the street in some form of suicide mission have often been somewhat educated people and not really poor.
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No political allegiance. No philosophy. No religion.
 
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ImSpartacus2
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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #26 - Jul 9th, 2015 at 2:31am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2015 at 5:51pm:
Do you think those Aussie Muslims who have traveled to the middle east to participate in the Muslim rape and pillage festival did so because of Islam, or was Islam merely the convenient excuse they picked up along the way?

Again, not a thing that only Arab peoples do. The history of the west is repleat with instances of rape and plunder done  under the guise of religion
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cods
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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #27 - Jul 9th, 2015 at 7:49am
 
... wrote on Jul 8th, 2015 at 9:41am:
I think you've got it backwards. 

When someone has true beliefs to anchor them, they are far less likely to be swayed by silly propaganda.  People without beliefs of their own can be made to support anything.  They are empty vessels just waiting to be filled. 

This applies equally to westerners whos only "belief" is whatever drum the media is beating at the time, as it does to dirt poor arabs who are convinced to blow themselves up in the name of Allah.




sounds reasonable..

almost everyone is offered a REWARD to do whatever...

I am not sure what they expect to get from 70 virgins.. but it seems to work..

western mercenaries dont do it for love of the "climate"...

we are all sold on something...even if its not believing we still believe we are right and everyone else is wrong...

trying to solve what makes everyone tick  is like trying to solve the universe........ whats the point?..there is no one answer.

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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #28 - Jul 9th, 2015 at 9:25am
 
issuevoter wrote on Jul 8th, 2015 at 8:53pm:
... wrote on Jul 8th, 2015 at 9:41am:
I think you've got it backwards. 

When someone has true beliefs to anchor them, they are far less likely to be swayed by silly propaganda.  People without beliefs of their own can be made to support anything.  They are empty vessels just waiting to be filled. 

This applies equally to westerners whos only "belief" is whatever drum the media is beating at the time, as it does to dirt poor arabs who are convinced to blow themselves up in the name of Allah.


But one has to acknowledge that those Muslims who have been ready to kill people in the street in some form of suicide mission have often been somewhat educated people and not really poor.


I don't now if that's true or not, but if so it's paralleleled here in the west where the biggest ideologues are also somewhat educated.
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In the fullness of time...
 
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Karnal
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Re: Treachery thy name is beliefs...
Reply #29 - Jul 9th, 2015 at 10:26am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 7th, 2015 at 9:35pm:
Phemanderac wrote on Jul 7th, 2015 at 4:11pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2015 at 7:32pm:
Do you understand the distinction between motivation and excuse/justification?


I do, are you at all aware of the common denominator though?


Correlation is not causation Phem. Let me guess, they share this "common denominator" with people who also refrain from rape and pillage?

Back to the original question - is Islam the motivation for these people joining the rape and pillage festival, or just an excuse?


There are plenty of people involved in the Syrian civil war who aren’t Muslims, FD. There were plenty of people who fought for the Bosnians in the Balkans war who weren’t Muslims too.

David Hicks was one - prior to his conversion.
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