Australian Politics Forum - Muslims chop Brit to Death

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death Reply #135 - Jul 15^th, 2015 at 8:33pm apparently wearing a simple piece of head-dress is "demanding accommodation from everyone else" FF_S
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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 137833 Gender:	Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death Reply #136 - Jul 15^th, 2015 at 8:35pm Ban them.
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Karnal

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Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death
Reply #137 - Jul 15^th, 2015 at 8:41pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 8:02pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 7:07pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 6:50pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 6:17pm:

I think if you are young Australian woman and you don the hijab and especially the niqab, you are demonstrating and advertising your support for values and norms that are antithetical to your own country's culture and system. As it is perfectly possible to have a privatre Muslim faith without anyone on the street knowing, Muslim women's relationship to ALlah and Islam is perfectly possible in a fully religious, private way. There is no meed for hijab or niqab in the West for a Muslim woman to be a Muslim woman.

What utter fapping nonsense.

You think your own subjective values are somehow universal values. Obviously the test for determining whether or not someone adheres to the values and norms of our society is through their demonstrated behaviour and attitudes - not by what they wear. You completely reject the possibility that a woman can wear a piece of clothing and at the same time behave and think in ways that are totally in line with the norms of our culture. Which is just stupid.

Utterly ridiculously absurdly fapping stupid.

True, not all cultures treat women equally, not even Western cultures but we are trying to get there. Happily in Australia a woman can wear pretty well what she wants. Unhappily not all countries or cultures allow that.

Wether or not you think that is a good or bad thing, is as you say subjective.

Me, my preference is for greater freedom and equality for women, they need not walk behind, or have separate seating and can wear what they like.

Part of being a free and fair society is to learn to judge people for how they behave and treat others - and not what they look like. Soren is just demonstrating that he is not suitable for a society like ours.

Civilisation has its discontents, no?

Kill them.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95930 Gender:	Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death Reply #138 - Jul 15^th, 2015 at 8:43pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 8:33pm: apparently wearing a simple piece of head-dress is "demanding accommodation from everyone else" FF_S Accommodation? I believe the correct term is submission. Carry on fapping, Gandy. We know you will.
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Soren

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Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death
Reply #139 - Jul 15^th, 2015 at 9:34pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 8:33pm:

apparently wearing a simple piece of head-dress is "demanding accommodation from everyone else" FF_S Roll Eyes

OK, Gandy, please tell me why bother with a public display of your cultural apartness if it is not really a do-or-die religious requirement?

The Muslims understand the power of such symbolism so they do not allow ANY non-Muslim display of religious affiliation in the seat and heart of Islam today. Why is Islam so forbidding of non-Islamic display of religious affiliation if it is neither here nor there? If Islam can ban and suppress, why can't others ban and suppress Islam?

You exploit freedoms that Islam is simply not prepared toi grant to others.

That is a sign of outright hostility and 'non-diversity' by Islam. I simply do not see why the West should accommodate such a totally unaccommodating creed.
Explain if you can why the West should accommodate Islam when it is so completely unaccommodating? Where is the mutuality?

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freediver

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Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death
Reply #140 - Jul 15^th, 2015 at 9:39pm

Quote:

You think your own subjective values are somehow universal values. Obviously the test for determining whether or not someone adheres to the values and norms of our society is through their demonstrated behaviour and attitudes - not by what they wear. You completely reject the possibility that a woman can wear a piece of clothing and at the same time behave and think in ways that are totally in line with the norms of our culture. Which is just stupid.

Gandalf are you aware of any women who wear the letterbox outfit yet still behave and think in ways that are totally in line with the norms of our culture?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death
Reply #141 - Jul 15^th, 2015 at 9:52pm

Soren wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 9:34pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 8:33pm:

apparently wearing a simple piece of head-dress is "demanding accommodation from everyone else" FF_S Roll Eyes

OK, Gandy, please tell me why bother with a public display of your cultural apartness if it is not really a do-or-die religious requirement?

The Muslims understand the power of such symbolism so they do not allow ANY non-Muslim display of religious affiliation in the seat and heart of Islam today. Why is Islam so forbidding of non-Islamic display of religious affiliation if it is neither here nor there? If Islam can ban and suppress, why can't others ban and suppress Islam?

You exploit freedoms that Islam is simply not prepared toi grant to others.

That is a sign of outright hostility and 'non-diversity' by Islam. I simply do not see why the West should accommodate such a totally unaccommodating creed.
Explain if you can why the West should accommodate Islam when it is so completely unaccommodating? Where is the mutuality?

bump

beautifully said

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Modern Classic Right Wing

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death
Reply #142 - Jul 16^th, 2015 at 1:15pm

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 9:39pm:

Quote:

You think your own subjective values are somehow universal values. Obviously the test for determining whether or not someone adheres to the values and norms of our society is through their demonstrated behaviour and attitudes - not by what they wear. You completely reject the possibility that a woman can wear a piece of clothing and at the same time behave and think in ways that are totally in line with the norms of our culture. Which is just stupid.

Gandalf are you aware of any women who wear the letterbox outfit yet still behave and think in ways that are totally in line with the norms of our culture?

No - and I'm not talking about the letterbox outfit.

And its called a burqa.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death
Reply #143 - Jul 16^th, 2015 at 1:42pm

Soren wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 9:34pm:

OK, Gandy, please tell me why bother with a public display of your cultural apartness if it is not really a do-or-die religious requirement?

Because some women do believe it is a religious requirement. There are also women who wear it for a whole range of reasons - cultural identity probably being one of them. But S the actual wording I picked up on was "demanding accommodation from everyone else". You seem to be running away from that now. Whatever reason a woman decides to wear a particular piece of clothing, she is not "demanding" anything from anyone - just the right to wear it without fear of discrimination or persecution.

Soren wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 9:34pm:

The Muslims understand the power of such symbolism so they do not allow ANY non-Muslim display of religious affiliation in the seat and heart of Islam today. Why is Islam so forbidding of non-Islamic display of religious affiliation if it is neither here nor there? If Islam can ban and suppress, why can't others ban and suppress Islam?

You exploit freedoms that Islam is simply not prepared toi grant to others

I really can't work out why you feel the need to be so unnecessarily belligerent towards me - when you damn well my thoughts on these matters are the exact opposite to what you describe here. We could be working on common ground here S - instead you have to create these ridiculous strawmen so you can continue being an arse towards me. You *KNOW* how abhorent I find the anti-freedom laws in much of the muslim world, so why in God's name would you conflate my opinions with theirs? Women should be free to wear what they want *WHEREVER* they are - Sydney, London, Aleppo or freaking Mecca. Yes it s W.R.O.N.G that women are forced to wear a particular restrictive type of clothing in the heartland of the Islamic world - and I have nothing but complete contempt for the logical leap that says its therefore somehow justifiable to persecute muslim in the west for wearing "non-western" clothing.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death
Reply #144 - Jul 16^th, 2015 at 8:13pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 16^th, 2015 at 1:42pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 9:34pm:

OK, Gandy, please tell me why bother with a public display of your cultural apartness if it is not really a do-or-die religious requirement?

Because some women do believe it is a religious requirement.

What the hell happened to their critical faculties??

They live in the West, they speak English, they have been through the Western education systems - they know ALL about critique.
And so they CHOOSE - not inadvertently find themselves in - burqas and hijabs and niqabs.

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Soren

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Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death
Reply #145 - Jul 16^th, 2015 at 8:17pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 16^th, 2015 at 1:42pm:

Whatever reason a woman decides to wear a particular piece of clothing, she is not "demanding" anything from anyone - just the right to wear it without fear of discrimination or persecution.

If she can wear it, I can say it's a stupid thing to wear it - that's freedom.

But she wants me to accept her freedom but will take exception to mine. She want;s me to accept her freedom to wear a stupid outfit but reject my freedom to say that it is stupid and a demonstration of her antagonism to the mainstream culture around her.

Once again, Islam want to use freedom to advance its aims but wants top abolish freedoms that may block it.

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Soren

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Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death
Reply #146 - Jul 16^th, 2015 at 8:23pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 16^th, 2015 at 1:42pm:

I really can't work out why you feel the need to be so unnecessarily belligerent towards me - when you damn well my thoughts on these matters are the exact opposite to what you describe here. We could be working on common ground here S - instead you have to create these ridiculous strawmen so you can continue being an arse towards me. You *KNOW* how abhorent I find the anti-freedom laws in much of the muslim world, so why in God's name would you conflate my opinions with theirs? Women should be free to wear what they want *WHEREVER* they are - Sydney, London, Aleppo or freaking Mecca. Yes it s W.R.O.N.G that women are forced to wear a particular restrictive type of clothing in the heartland of the Islamic world - and I have nothing but complete contempt for the logical leap that says its therefore somehow justifiable to persecute muslim in the west for wearing "non-western" clothing.

Because I do not see you as active in the reformation of Islam, only as being active in rejecting non-Muslim criticisms of Islam. When I see you agitating - not on these boards - against the inhuman aspects of Islam I will be you ally.

Until then, it's just easy words from you on an obscure platform for kvetching. No effect, no impact, no credibility.

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freediver

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Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death
Reply #147 - Jul 16^th, 2015 at 8:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 16^th, 2015 at 1:15pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2015 at 9:39pm:

Quote:

You think your own subjective values are somehow universal values. Obviously the test for determining whether or not someone adheres to the values and norms of our society is through their demonstrated behaviour and attitudes - not by what they wear. You completely reject the possibility that a woman can wear a piece of clothing and at the same time behave and think in ways that are totally in line with the norms of our culture. Which is just stupid.

Gandalf are you aware of any women who wear the letterbox outfit yet still behave and think in ways that are totally in line with the norms of our culture?

No - and I'm not talking about the letterbox outfit.

And its called a burqa.

I prefer the term letterbox outfit. There is less room for confusion. But please feel free to substitute whatever traditional Islamic garb you want if it enables you to answer the question.

Quote:

Because I do not see you as active in the reformation of Islam

Gandalf has proposed two major reforms that I have noticed. One is reinterpreting Muhammed's instruction to execute gays. The other is suggesting that Muhammed erred. For some reason he is now running away from both of them.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death
Reply #148 - Jul 17^th, 2015 at 9:01am

Soren wrote on Jul 16^th, 2015 at 8:17pm:

If she can wear it, I can say it's a stupid thing to wear it - that's freedom.

Ah pulls the old "I'm free to say...." defense. It was only a matter of time.

Yes, I suppose you are free to make up baseless lies to smear people - I can't really argue with that. But its completely irrelevant - because nowhere did I or anyone say you should be banned from doing so. What I am saying is that your smears are completely baseless, they are bigoted and they are specifically designed to unfairly smear and degrade an entire group in our society. Thats freedom.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims chop Brit to Death
Reply #149 - Jul 17^th, 2015 at 9:21am

freediver wrote on Jul 16^th, 2015 at 8:53pm:

But please feel free to substitute whatever traditional Islamic garb you want if it enables you to answer the question.

Sorry FD - are you saying that "no" is not an answer to a 'yes/no' question? I wonder what is an answer - "Islam sux" perhaps?

freediver wrote on Jul 16^th, 2015 at 8:53pm:

Gandalf has proposed two major reforms that I have noticed. One is reinterpreting Muhammed's instruction to execute gays. The other is suggesting that Muhammed erred. For some reason he is now running away from both of them.

Yes, well we know how well you take notice of what muslims say. In just one thread we went from "gandalf thinks gays should be executed" to "gandalf thinks an order to execute gays should be interpreted as tolerance for gays" to "actually I don't even know what gandalf says."

Quite understandable that you missed entirely my considered and detailed thoughts about actual reform in Islam - such as reinterpreting the ahadith in Islamic doctrine and how the Quran should be properly understood as promoting freedom of thought and critical thinking. Of course it was much more important for you to focus on twisting gandalf's words about gays.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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