Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 ... 10 11 12 13 14 
Send Topic Print
Little Ice Age imminent? (Read 13523 times)
bogarde73
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Anti-Global & Contra Mundum

Posts: 18443
Gender: male
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #165 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 1:23pm
 
Coupled with the need of  some people to have a cause to hang an agenda on.
The truth just doesn't do it for many.
Back to top
 

Know the enemies of a civil society by their public behaviour, by their fraudulent claim to be liberal-progressive, by their propensity to lie and, above all, by their attachment to authoritarianism.
 
IP Logged
 
Unforgiven
Gold Member
*****
Offline


I have sinned

Posts: 8879
Gender: male
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #166 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 1:31pm
 
mariacostel wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 12:59pm:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 14th, 2015 at 10:13pm:
innocentbystander. wrote on Aug 14th, 2015 at 9:03am:
Do you think the coming ice age has been caused by all this additional co2 Bobby?


I agree that CO2 does cause global warming -

it's just that for the next 15 to 25 years other factors will counteract it.


The factors that affect climate are huge in number and massive in complexity. That of course would account for why all the predictions and models simply fail and by a large margin. A lot of people seem intent on maintaining a doomsday scenario for planet earth and they simply create new ones when old ones expire. Has anyone noticed that Climate Change Fear appeared around the end of the Cold War and the worry of nuclear annihilation? And true to form, when the scaremongering of Climate Change eventually fades having been destroyed by climate's utter refusal to do as predicted, there will be another manufactured fear ready to replace it. It is not a conspiracy, but rather a global need for many people to be constantly at risk of disaster.


Methinks that hypotheses of trends from recent climate evidence require too many assumptions to support the proposition that there is no global warming.

The simple average temperature chart exemplifying constant increase in recent years and the fact of trend of recent years being the hottest recorded years after year is difficult to ignore.

Occam's Razor: "The principle states that among competing hypotheses that predict equally well, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected."
Back to top
 

“I’ll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours” Bob Dylan
 
IP Logged
 
mariacostel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 7344
Sydney
Gender: female
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #167 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 2:00pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 1:31pm:
mariacostel wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 12:59pm:
Bobby. wrote on Aug 14th, 2015 at 10:13pm:
innocentbystander. wrote on Aug 14th, 2015 at 9:03am:
Do you think the coming ice age has been caused by all this additional co2 Bobby?


I agree that CO2 does cause global warming -

it's just that for the next 15 to 25 years other factors will counteract it.


The factors that affect climate are huge in number and massive in complexity. That of course would account for why all the predictions and models simply fail and by a large margin. A lot of people seem intent on maintaining a doomsday scenario for planet earth and they simply create new ones when old ones expire. Has anyone noticed that Climate Change Fear appeared around the end of the Cold War and the worry of nuclear annihilation? And true to form, when the scaremongering of Climate Change eventually fades having been destroyed by climate's utter refusal to do as predicted, there will be another manufactured fear ready to replace it. It is not a conspiracy, but rather a global need for many people to be constantly at risk of disaster.


Methinks that hypotheses of trends from recent climate evidence require too many assumptions to support the proposition that there is no global warming.

The simple average temperature chart exemplifying constant increase in recent years and the fact of trend of recent years being the hottest recorded years after year is difficult to ignore.

Occam's Razor: "The principle states that among competing hypotheses that predict equally well, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected."


Your understanding of Occams Razor should do with some refinement. It states that the simplest solution is usually the right one. What is simpler than believing that climate will continue to support human life just as it has for the pat ten thousand years? That is by far the simplest conclusion. Another failure in your understanding is that of "competing hypotheses that predict equally well". I would hope you are not claiming that Climate Change models or predictions have been anything less than a monumental failure.

Occams Razor suggests very powerfully that Climate Change Catastrophe is completely unlikely.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
mariacostel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 7344
Sydney
Gender: female
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #168 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 2:02pm
 
bogarde73 wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 1:23pm:
Coupled with the need of  some people to have a cause to hang an agenda on.
The truth just doesn't do it for many.


It is a well established fact of human behaviour that people not only want but need to have a 'cause' or passion to live for or by. Have you ever met a person with no passions, no interests, no strong opinions and no real desire to achieve?  If you have then you know they have one foot in the grave and the other sliding towards it.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 18065
Gender: male
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #169 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:03pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 1:31pm:
Occam's Razor: "The principle states that among competing hypotheses that predict equally well, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected."



The CAGW models have a huge number of parameters i.e. assumptions.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Unforgiven
Gold Member
*****
Offline


I have sinned

Posts: 8879
Gender: male
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #170 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:10pm
 
lee wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:03pm:
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 1:31pm:
Occam's Razor: "The principle states that among competing hypotheses that predict equally well, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected."



The CAGW models have a huge number of parameters i.e. assumptions.


Not so. The simplest model is recent year rising temperatures average and record highs year after year.
Back to top
 

“I’ll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours” Bob Dylan
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 18065
Gender: male
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #171 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:17pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:10pm:
The simplest model is recent year rising temperatures average and record highs year after year.



Please provide a link to this model with its associated link to CO2 causing the temperature increase. Or even the correlation of the CO2 to the temperature increase.

CO2 has increased over 30% since the 1990's. The temperatures should have soared, if indeed CO2 is the 'control knob' of global warming.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Unforgiven
Gold Member
*****
Offline


I have sinned

Posts: 8879
Gender: male
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #172 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:38pm
 
lee wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:17pm:
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:10pm:
The simplest model is recent year rising temperatures average and record highs year after year.



Please provide a link to this model with its associated link to CO2 causing the temperature increase. Or even the correlation of the CO2 to the temperature increase.

CO2 has increased over 30% since the 1990's. The temperatures should have soared, if indeed CO2 is the 'control knob' of global warming.


See information below. Please don't thank me.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/carbon-dioxide-and-climate/

Quote:
Even the carbon dioxide theory is not new; the basic idea was first precisely stated in 1861 by the noted British physicist John Tyndall. He attributed climatic temperature-changes to variations in the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. According to the theory, carbon dioxide controls temperature because the carbon dioxide molecules in the air absorb infrared radiation. The carbon dioxide and other gases in the atmosphere are virtually transparent to the visible radiation that delivers the sun's energy to the earth. But the earth in turn reradiates much of the energy in the invisible infrared region of the spectrum. This radiation is most intense at wavelengths very close to the principal absorption band (13 to 17 microns) of the carbon dioxide spectrum. When the carbon dioxide concentration is sufficiently high, even its weaker absorption bands become effective, and a greater amount of infrared radiation is absorbed [see chart on page 42]. Because the carbon dioxide blanket prevents its escape into space, the trapped radiation warms up the atmosphere.


CO2 (red) looks very correlated to temperature in the chart below from NOAA.

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/temperature-change.html

...
Back to top
 

“I’ll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours” Bob Dylan
 
IP Logged
 
Bobby.
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 107176
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #173 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:39pm
 
lee wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:17pm:
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:10pm:
The simplest model is recent year rising temperatures average and record highs year after year.



Please provide a link to this model with its associated link to CO2 causing the temperature increase. Or even the correlation of the CO2 to the temperature increase.

CO2 has increased over 30% since the 1990's. The temperatures should have soared, if indeed CO2 is the 'control knob' of global warming.



Good on you Lee -

unlike Mr Unforgiven you are not so gullible as

to believe all the CO2 nonsense that is in our media.

The greatest global warming chemical is H2O  or water vapor.

Unforgiven is forgiven

namaste

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
mariacostel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 7344
Sydney
Gender: female
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #174 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 4:10pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:10pm:
lee wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:03pm:
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 1:31pm:
Occam's Razor: "The principle states that among competing hypotheses that predict equally well, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected."



The CAGW models have a huge number of parameters i.e. assumptions.


Not so. The simplest model is recent year rising temperatures average and record highs year after year.


I don't quite know how to respond to that 'response'. Laughter? Derisive mocking? Pity? Or maybe a simple reference to a dictionary to understand the meaning of 'model' or even 'assumption'.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Unforgiven
Gold Member
*****
Offline


I have sinned

Posts: 8879
Gender: male
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #175 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 5:41pm
 
mariacostel wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 4:10pm:
I don't quite know how to respond to that 'response'. Laughter? Derisive mocking? Pity? Or maybe a simple reference to a dictionary to understand the meaning of 'model' or even 'assumption'.


Here you go. Correlation of models with actual observed temperature. You will have to open the article to see the charts depicting the models.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2014/aug/25...

Quote:
The figure below from the Huber & Knutti paper illustrates the point nicely. The dotted orange and solid black lines show the unadjusted average model projection and measured global surface temperatures, respectively. The solid orange and dashed black lines show these estimates adjusted to reflect the changes in ocean cycles, solar output, volcanic activity, and surface temperature measurement biases.

Mean of CMIP5 climate model ensemble surface temperature projections unadjusted (dotted orange) and adjusted for internal variability & external forcings (solid orange), vs. Met Office (solid black) and Cowtan & Way (dashed black) observed surface temperatures.
Mean of CMIP5 climate model ensemble surface temperature projections unadjusted (dotted orange) and adjusted for internal variability & external forcings (solid orange), vs. Met Office (solid black) and Cowtan & Way (dashed black) observed surface temperatures. Source; Nature Geoscience; Huber & Knutti (2014)
Huber & Knutti show that when climate models account for these short-term natural changes, their temperature projections are right on the money.

The bad news is that we can’t yet predict changes in ocean cycles, solar output, or volcanic activity accurately, so it’s going to be hard to improve short-term climate model projections. The good news is that these factors make little difference in long-term climate changes or predictions. Solar and volcanic activity tend to be relatively stable, and will barely make a dent in human-caused global warming. Positive and negative phases of ocean cycles cancel each other out over the long-


http://nauka.in.ua/en/news/articles/article_detail/7182
Quote:
Three-quarters of climate change is man-made
Image: greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide have contributed around 0.85 °C to global warming since the 1950s, Swiss researchers have found (L. RINDER/GLOWIMAGES.COM)

Natural climate variability is extremely unlikely to have contributed more than about one-quarter of the temperature rise observed in the past 60 years, reports a pair of Swiss climate modellers. Most of the observed warming — at least 74 % — is almost certainly due to human activity, they write in Nature Geoscience.

Since 1950, the average global surface air temperature has increased by more than 0.5 °C. To separate human and natural causes of warming, the researchers analysed changes in the balance of heat energy entering and leaving Earth — a new ‘attribution' method for understanding the physical causes of climate change.

Their findings, which are strikingly similar to results produced by other attribution methods, provide an alternative line of evidence that greenhouse gases, and in particular carbon dioxide, are by far the main culprit of recent global warming. The massive increase of atmospheric CO2 concentrations since pre-industrial times would, in fact, have caused substantially more surface warming were it not for the cooling effects of atmospheric aerosols such as black carbon, they report.

Previous attempts to disentangle anthropogenic and natural warming used a statistically complex technique called optimal fingerprinting to compare observed patterns of surface air temperature over time with the modelled climate response to greenhouse gases, solar radiation and aerosols from volcanoes and other sources.


A balanced view
“Optimal fingerprinting is a powerful technique, but to most people it’s a black box,” says Reto Knutti, a climate scientist at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH) in Zurich, one of the authors of the report.

Knutti and his co-author Markus Huber, also at ETH Zurich, took a different approach. They utilized a much simpler model of Earth’s total energy budget and ran the model many thousands of times, using different combinations of a few crucial parameters that contribute to the energy budget. These included global values for incoming shortwave radiation from the Sun, solar energy leaving Earth, heat absorbed by the oceans and climate-feedback effects (such as reduced snow cover, which amplifies warming by exposing darker surfaces that absorb more heat).

By using the combinations that best matched the observed surface warming and ocean heat uptake, the authors then ran the so-constrained model with each energy parameter individually. This enabled them to estimate the contribution of CO2 and other climate-change agents to the observed temperature change. Their study was greatly assisted by a 2009 analysis of observed changes since 1950 in Earth’s energy balance, says Knutti.
Back to top
 

“I’ll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours” Bob Dylan
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 18065
Gender: male
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #176 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 5:49pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 3:38pm:
CO2 (red) looks very correlated to temperature in the chart below from NOAA.



Yes we know CO2 lags temperature. That is not in dispute. There is a lagging correlation.

Correlation is not causation.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 18065
Gender: male
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #177 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 5:56pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 5:41pm:
They utilized a much simpler model of Earth’s total energy budget and ran the model many thousands of times, using different combinations of a few crucial parameters that contribute to the energy budget. These included global values for incoming shortwave radiation from the Sun, solar energy leaving Earth, heat absorbed by the oceans and climate-feedback effects (such as reduced snow cover, which amplifies warming by exposing darker surfaces that absorb more heat).


Knutti and Huber

Seeing that most of the knowledge of of heat absorbed by the oceans is unknown, apart from being "parametrised", seeing as they don't appear to have "done" clouds; their paper is more simplistic than simple.

And that's assuming knowing the "Earth's energy budget".
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Unforgiven
Gold Member
*****
Offline


I have sinned

Posts: 8879
Gender: male
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #178 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 6:09pm
 
In regard to Australia's CO2 sink capabilities, it's more good luck than good management and was due to heavy rains and flooding in the North of Australia which is a temporary effect. That carbon will be released when the plants die when drought conditions resume.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2014/05/22/4009078.htm

Quote:
"We saw this incredible carbon sink in the southern hemisphere," says Canadell. "The semi-arid regions were playing the biggest role and particularly the grassy component."

"We never thought savannahs of the world could potentially have this effect."

Even more surprising, he says, was that 60 per cent of the extra plant growth was in Australia's semi-arid areas, north of Alice Springs.

Canadell says the massive semi-arid sink down under was apparently formed following the 2010-2011 La Niña.

It drenched the southern hemisphere and Australia got the lion's share of rainfall resulting in severe flooding in Queensland.

And the Australian savannah, parched from years of drought, soaked up the rain and turned it into new plant growth, says Canadell.

Canadell and colleagues relied on several independent lines of evidence for their findings, including satellites that use passive microwaves to detect the water content of plants.

The researchers also used models that link carbon sinks with atmospheric CO2 and fossil fuel emissions, and models that link vegetation growth with rainfall, temperature and solar radiation.

Canadell says it will be important to incorporate semi-arid carbon sinks in future global major climate models.

Short-term sink
While accumulating CO2 in semi-arid areas may sound like a good thing, Canadell warns that it is important to consider the likely short term nature of some of these sinks.

The IPCC predicts global warming will lead to more climatic extremes in semi-arid areas, including more extremely hot days, severe droughts and heavy rainfall.
Back to top
 

“I’ll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours” Bob Dylan
 
IP Logged
 
mariacostel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 7344
Sydney
Gender: female
Re: Little Ice Age imminent?
Reply #179 - Aug 15th, 2015 at 6:14pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 5:41pm:
mariacostel wrote on Aug 15th, 2015 at 4:10pm:
I don't quite know how to respond to that 'response'. Laughter? Derisive mocking? Pity? Or maybe a simple reference to a dictionary to understand the meaning of 'model' or even 'assumption'.


Here you go. Correlation of models with actual observed temperature. You will have to open the article to see the charts depicting the models.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2014/aug/25...

Quote:
The figure below from the Huber & Knutti paper illustrates the point nicely. The dotted orange and solid black lines show the unadjusted average model projection and measured global surface temperatures, respectively. The solid orange and dashed black lines show these estimates adjusted to reflect the changes in ocean cycles, solar output, volcanic activity, and surface temperature measurement biases.

Mean of CMIP5 climate model ensemble surface temperature projections unadjusted (dotted orange) and adjusted for internal variability & external forcings (solid orange), vs. Met Office (solid black) and Cowtan & Way (dashed black) observed surface temperatures.
Mean of CMIP5 climate model ensemble surface temperature projections unadjusted (dotted orange) and adjusted for internal variability & external forcings (solid orange), vs. Met Office (solid black) and Cowtan & Way (dashed black) observed surface temperatures. Source; Nature Geoscience; Huber & Knutti (2014)
Huber & Knutti show that when climate models account for these short-term natural changes, their temperature projections are right on the money.

The bad news is that we can’t yet predict changes in ocean cycles, solar output, or volcanic activity accurately, so it’s going to be hard to improve short-term climate model projections. The good news is that these factors make little difference in long-term climate changes or predictions. Solar and volcanic activity tend to be relatively stable, and will barely make a dent in human-caused global warming. Positive and negative phases of ocean cycles cancel each other out over the long-


http://nauka.in.ua/en/news/articles/article_detail/7182
Quote:
Three-quarters of climate change is man-made
Image: greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide have contributed around 0.85 °C to global warming since the 1950s, Swiss researchers have found (L. RINDER/GLOWIMAGES.COM)

Natural climate variability is extremely unlikely to have contributed more than about one-quarter of the temperature rise observed in the past 60 years, reports a pair of Swiss climate modellers. Most of the observed warming — at least 74 % — is almost certainly due to human activity, they write in Nature Geoscience.

Since 1950, the average global surface air temperature has increased by more than 0.5 °C. To separate human and natural causes of warming, the researchers analysed changes in the balance of heat energy entering and leaving Earth — a new ‘attribution' method for understanding the physical causes of climate change.

Their findings, which are strikingly similar to results produced by other attribution methods, provide an alternative line of evidence that greenhouse gases, and in particular carbon dioxide, are by far the main culprit of recent global warming. The massive increase of atmospheric CO2 concentrations since pre-industrial times would, in fact, have caused substantially more surface warming were it not for the cooling effects of atmospheric aerosols such as black carbon, they report.

Previous attempts to disentangle anthropogenic and natural warming used a statistically complex technique called optimal fingerprinting to compare observed patterns of surface air temperature over time with the modelled climate response to greenhouse gases, solar radiation and aerosols from volcanoes and other sources.


A balanced view
“Optimal fingerprinting is a powerful technique, but to most people it’s a black box,” says Reto Knutti, a climate scientist at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH) in Zurich, one of the authors of the report.

Knutti and his co-author Markus Huber, also at ETH Zurich, took a different approach. They utilized a much simpler model of Earth’s total energy budget and ran the model many thousands of times, using different combinations of a few crucial parameters that contribute to the energy budget. These included global values for incoming shortwave radiation from the Sun, solar energy leaving Earth, heat absorbed by the oceans and climate-feedback effects (such as reduced snow cover, which amplifies warming by exposing darker surfaces that absorb more heat).

By using the combinations that best matched the observed surface warming and ocean heat uptake, the authors then ran the so-constrained model with each energy parameter individually. This enabled them to estimate the contribution of CO2 and other climate-change agents to the observed temperature change. Their study was greatly assisted by a 2009 analysis of observed changes since 1950 in Earth’s energy balance, says Knutti.


You started with an article that claims the mythical and fraudulent 97% consensus claim. Any article that maintains this obvious and well-disproven nonsense goes straight to the bin. It is rubbish.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 10 11 12 13 14 
Send Topic Print