From a recent thread, where Gandalf spent about ten pages trying to justify not talking about this and blaming me for 'tricking him' into joining the discussion, and also from a thread from last year where Gandalf offered up several interpretations of Muhammed's command to execute gays. And before Gandalf gets all wound wound up again - I apologise, it was wrong of me to suggest that Gandalf had only taken one position on this issue.
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 5
th, 2015 at 10:51am:
freediver wrote on Jul 5
th, 2015 at 8:42am:
Have you figured out yet who those Aussie Muslims would be raping and slaughtering if they were no Muslims?
Quote:He said it's not alright to kill gays for being gays, FD.
Thanks for clarifying Karnal. Can you quote him?
From the same thread FD:
Quote:And yet it wasn't a call to execute homosexuals. Why do you think he described them in the terms "doing as Lot's people did"? Do you think sodomy was unheard of in pre-islamic times that he had to make this reference? Do you think everyone at that time referred to sodomy as "doing as Lot's people did"? You demand a literal interpretation of the texts - well this is it - in literal terms, he is not calling for homosexuals to be executed, he is calling for people who did "as Lot's people did" to be executed - which included sodomy and debauchery, robbery, rape and generally flaunted God's laws. Its a whole package.
Would you agree thats saying its not alright to kill gays for being gays? Please, feel free to spin this quote beyond all meaning - we all know you want to.
So it is not OK to kill gays, but it is OK if you kill gays, rapists, thieves, debaucherers etc? You are not allowed to discriminate in who you kill?
From the other thread:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 10
th, 2014 at 12:44pm:
I'm not sure FD.
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 10
th, 2014 at 1:54pm:
By the description, Muhammad is clearly talking about an act of sodomy, but is it necessarily any act of sodomy? In my view, the case has not been conclusively made.
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 10
th, 2014 at 7:40pm:
FD he's obviously talking about sodomy.
But the argument has been made (not by me) that he is only talking about sodomy that is borne out of lust and debauchery - not from genuine love and commitment.
You've got to admit there is a legitimate question about why he refers to it as "anyone doing as Lot's people did" as opposed to simply saying "anyone who commits sodomy"
Also, the quranic verses referring to Lot's people only refers to sodomy in the context of lust, no mention of sodomy in the context of genuine love and devotion.
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 11
th, 2014 at 11:43am:
You could argue that the Quran would only ever describe sodomy in negative terms - fair enough.
Its just a point of view though, equally as valid as saying that the Quran deliberately makes a distinction between "acceptable" and "unacceptable" types of sodomy.
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 11
th, 2014 at 4:58pm:
So I ask, if mainstream muslims allow themselves to be fooled by so called "scholars" who take the longest stretch you can imagine in their interpretation of islamic texts to propogate their misogyny and intolerance and call it "islamic law" - I reckon its fair enough to take the same sort of liberties with things like homosexuality. Thats a crude way of putting it, but I hope you get my point.
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 14
th, 2014 at 3:04pm:
The issue here is you taking my argument that The Prophet's ruling on those that did "as Lot's people did" may not necessarily be a ruling against homosexuality per se
polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 14
th, 2014 at 6:31pm:
I'm quite happy to "own" the argument that The Prophet's ruling there may not necessarily be a ruling against homosexuality per se - like I've been saying all along. Exactly what did you think I was disowning FD?
Have you made up your mind yet Gandalf? Perhaps Muhammed meant you should kill Robin Hood. He was a taker and a giver.
Is it fair for me to take the same sort of liberties with what you say?
This is how you left the other thread:
freediver wrote on Jun 14
th, 2014 at 6:47pm:
So you don't actually know? What happened to all your a priori knowledge?
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