Australian Politics Forum - Treatment of our soldiers

Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Treatment of our soldiers
Reply #15 - Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:31pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:18pm:

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 8:08pm:

It's alright Gandalf. The right wing fanatical war loving denizens of Ozpolitic will offer to take these veterans into their homes. Swagman, Herbert, Gizmo, longweekend58, Rhino, Lisa Jones, Bogarde, Lionel Idriess, Red Baron, Baron Von Rort, UnsubRocky, Double Plus Good and others of their ilk will step up.

Fat chance!

I didn't realise that Unforgivable sees me as a right wing, fanatical, war loving person. I was very much an anti-war, left-wing/centrist, progressive, environmentalist.

Thank you for that piece of exposition, Unforgivable. Now, put that crystal meth away, before you do any more harm.

I am neither right wing nor fanatical - I'm politically between the two and choose as I like.... and I can be damned good at war...

I said, when the US bombed and invaded Afghanistan (a fight I struggled mightily to get into - even considering a nursing degree to get in as a civvie - heart troubles stopped that) that is was shameful for the richest and most powerful country in the world to bomb the poorest...

Why don't I get a mention? Is it something I said?

Why is there an assumption that anyone who supports the Diggers and gives a damn is either a right wing nutjob or a left wing nutjob?

Anyone ever heard of people?

I plan to retire into doing aid work.... always have..... and I'm certain I can bring a new dimension to it...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Treatment of our soldiers Reply #16 - Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:35pm It must be a terrible thing to return from what most would consider the ultimate sacrifice for your country only to be shunned. Even more difficult when people back home have differing opinions on our involvement in overseas wars.
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UnSubRocky Gold Member Offline Crocodile Hunter: Origins Posts: 25022 Rockhampton Gender:	Re: Treatment of our soldiers Reply #17 - Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:40pm Economic Left/Right: -2.5 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.38 Just did the test: Left wing libertarian
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Grappler Deep State Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 85454 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: Treatment of our soldiers Reply #18 - Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:43pm UnSubRocky wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:40pm: Economic Left/Right: -2.5 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.38 Just did the test: Left wing libertarian I'm further left than the Dalai Lama - Fascist Pig that he is.... and I'm a great leader..... I lead by example....
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Lionel Edriess

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Re: Treatment of our soldiers
Reply #19 - Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:43pm

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 10:31pm:

Lionel Edriess wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 9:23pm:

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 8:08pm:

It's alright Gandalf. The right wing fanatical war loving denizens of Ozpolitic will offer to take these veterans into their homes. Swagman, Herbert, Gizmo, longweekend58, Rhino, Lisa Jones, Bogarde, Lionel Idriess, and others of their ilk will step up.

Fat chance!

I feel like I know you. If not on a personal level, perhaps your tone, ideology, sentence structure, vocabulary and grammar, mark you as someone I am familiar with.

If not, please forgive me, for I have mistaken you for another - of 'your ilk'.

You, on the other hand, know nothing of me, other than a preconceived notion elicited by my online persona. More fool you!

You know nothing of my connections and interactions with veterans, and I feel no need to elaborate on them.

You are Unforgiven, right?

I can see how that works - on so many levels.

If your real name is Lionel Edriess I don't know of anyone with such name. You are mistaken if you believe you know me.

If your real name is not Lionel Edriess you don't remind me of anyone I know in the real world by your words or your professed ideology.

Aaaah! English is a second language, I see.

I know of your type. I don't need to know you personally to know that.

My name is a play on words, as is my character.

Am I Forgiven?

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Toughen up, Australia!

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Treatment of our soldiers
Reply #20 - Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:45pm

Amadd wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:35pm:

It must be a terrible thing to return from what most would consider the ultimate sacrifice for your country only to be shunned.
Even more difficult when people back home have differing opinions on our involvement in overseas wars.

PTSD is a normal person's reaction to extremely abnormal events..... I've always held the theory that rejection of the sufferer and inability to fit back in were the main propellants of this disorder into eventual chaos for the individual.

They arrive home in one piece and are relieved that they have done so.... they want a decent life... then the war starts.......

Do you know a single un-divorced grunt? I don't....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Unforgiven

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Re: Treatment of our soldiers
Reply #21 - Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:49pm

Amadd wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:35pm:

It must be a terrible thing to return from what most would consider the ultimate sacrifice for your country only to be shunned.
Even more difficult when people back home have differing opinions on our involvement in overseas wars.

There are no longer clean cut honest and fair victories. War in recent times has been clouded by the duplicity of leaders who manufacture excuses for war and then proceed to kill hundreds of thousands indiscriminately.

Men come back wondering how they consented to participate in such madness.

Only part of them comes back.

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“I’ll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours” Bob Dylan

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Treatment of our soldiers
Reply #22 - Jul 30^th, 2015 at 4:43am

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:49pm:

Amadd wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:35pm:

It must be a terrible thing to return from what most would consider the ultimate sacrifice for your country only to be shunned.
Even more difficult when people back home have differing opinions on our involvement in overseas wars.

There are no longer clean cut honest and fair victories. War in recent times has been clouded by the duplicity of leaders who manufacture excuses for war and then proceed to kill hundreds of thousands indiscriminately.

Men come back wondering how they consented to participate in such madness.

Only part of them comes back.

They know why they were sent - and they know it's a political decision based on a perceived 'national interest' - whether it be oil, mutual protection treaties, or international links.

Many suggest that Korea was the last patriotic war - The Last Call Of The Bugle (read it some time), and even as far back as the original James Jones "The Thin Red Line" his central character - the sergeant - is a cynic who goes around saying:- "Property.. property .. it's all about property." (something missed in two film versions of that book now)

Jones was a grunt and understood that the Pacific War was - and remains - a continuation of the decades long contest between the Manifest Destiny of the United States and the Divine Mission of Japan to develop a trading bloc in the Pacific and promote/extend national interest. This has been dubbed The Second Hundred Years War and continues in a different guise to this day, and is one reason behind the rapprochement with "Communist" China... (only one).... a kind of alliance by cultural assimilation of the Chinese.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Treatment of our soldiers
Reply #23 - Jul 30^th, 2015 at 7:50am

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:13pm:

PTSD sufferers are shunned because they are not the strong invincible men the military likes to depict in it's propaganda.

The military treats it like a contagious disease that needs to be expunged and isolated by banishment lest it spreads through the ranks.

Yes good point. They are an embarrassment to us. If we accepted that the reality of sending our young men and women off to war was to create mental wrecks that are quietly shunned in the aftermath - then we might think twice about sending them off in the first place. And thats obviously unacceptable.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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aquascoot

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Re: Treatment of our soldiers
Reply #24 - Jul 30^th, 2015 at 7:55am

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 8:48pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 8:35pm:

I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right.

I am not from the left or right I am centrist.

PTSD is a new age disorder like ADHD.
Back in WW1 none of the returning soldiers had PTSD it hadn't been invented.

Did this guy look like he had PTSD when he returned?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jacka

ive read Albert Jacka's biographies.
What an absolutely amazing character.
thanks for bringing him up.

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Treatment of our soldiers
Reply #25 - Jul 30^th, 2015 at 8:01am

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 8:48pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 8:35pm:

I'm frankly astonished that there doesn't seem to be any noise about this - especially from the right.

I am not from the left or right I am centrist.

PTSD is a new age disorder like ADHD.
Back in WW1 none of the returning soldiers had PTSD it hadn't been invented.

Did this guy look like he had PTSD when he returned?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Jacka

Returning WWI and WW2 soldiers beat their wives and kids to a pulp on a regular basis when they came home drunk after washing their war horrors away with a gut full of booze.

Same thing, except now it has a name and it's not just alcohol, it's drugs as well now.

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Treatment of our soldiers
Reply #26 - Jul 30^th, 2015 at 8:04am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 7:50am:

Unforgiven wrote on Jul 29^th, 2015 at 11:13pm:

PTSD sufferers are shunned because they are not the strong invincible men the military likes to depict in it's propaganda.

The military treats it like a contagious disease that needs to be expunged and isolated by banishment lest it spreads through the ranks.

Yes good point. They are an embarrassment to us. If we accepted that the reality of sending our young men and women off to war was to create mental wrecks that are quietly shunned in the aftermath - then we might think twice about sending them off in the first place. And thats obviously unacceptable.

Whenever I get the chance, I tell high school students about the horrors of war and about ADF abuse. The ADF send recruiters into the schools (it should be illegal) to brainwash vulnerable teenagers into signing up.

I tell them they're safer on the dole.

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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aquascoot

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Re: Treatment of our soldiers
Reply #27 - Jul 30^th, 2015 at 8:15am

i think PTSD probably would be an infectious disease and it is wise for the military to isolate these cases.

as i have said before, you become the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with.

if you put an average soldier in with 5 guys who are falling apart, he will fall apart.
put him in with 5 heroes, he will become heroic.

as i say to crook on a regular basis.

put a 17 yo unemployed lad in a house with 5 guys who are negative, pessimistic, wear pyjamas all day and watch porn and he will catch their disease.

put a 17 yo unemployed lad in a work for the dole program with me and i'll have him associating with hard working, humorous, optomistic, "can-do" "go-getters"

you absorb the personality of those you associate with by osmosis.
This is why its important young people dont go to rallies with "get-up" or other type infectious people carrying socialist toxins

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Treatment of our soldiers
Reply #28 - Jul 30^th, 2015 at 8:38am

aquascoot wrote on Jul 30^th, 2015 at 8:15am:

i think PTSD probably would be an infectious disease and it is wise for the military to isolate these cases.

as i have said before, you become the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with.

if you put an average soldier in with 5 guys who are falling apart, he will fall apart.
put him in with 5 heroes, he will become heroic.

as i say to crook on a regular basis.

put a 17 yo unemployed lad in a house with 5 guys who are negative, pessimistic, wear pyjamas all day and watch porn and he will catch their disease.

put a 17 yo unemployed lad in a work for the dole program with me and i'll have him associating with hard working, humorous, optomistic, "can-do" "go-getters"

you absorb the personality of those you associate with by osmosis.
This is why its important young people dont go to rallies with "get-up" or other type infectious people carrying socialist toxins

Any comment on the abhorrent way the Australian government treats ex servicemen who have trashed brains because of their war service?

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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aquascoot

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Re: Treatment of our soldiers
Reply #29 - Jul 30^th, 2015 at 8:50am

Oh i think veterans get very well looked after.
they certainly have gold cards which entitle them to unlimited care from psychiatrists and psychologists.

I am a bit ambivalent about PTSD.

Like whiplash, once you start attaching big compensation to something, the subconscious mind will tend to produce more symptoms. This isnt even been done at a fraudulent level.
If you are aware that night terrors and flashbacks are going to result in a payout, then the human mind can manufacture these.
If you are aware that neck pain will result in a payout, the human mind will make those muscles painful.

i dont think its ever helpful to pay money for a disability, not because i'm not compassionate but because this merely serves to "reward" disability and we need to reward "ability"

What i would introduce is a "no claims bonus".

Any soldier who serves so many days in the frontline and remains mentally strong, recieves so many 1000's , 10's of 1000's or even 100's of 1000's of dollars.
thus we are rewarding bravery and courage and we will get more bravery and courage.

i totally agree these blokes, especially on the front line deserve bigger pay.
a lot of military, however, would face less threat of violence then a suburban policeman.
so we need a way of working out who is in the frontline and who is cooking bacon back in the greenzone and eating baskin and robbins for morning tea.

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