Australian Politics Forum - Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering Reply #120 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 7:03pm Unforgiven wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 2:54pm: How much does Freediver get paid for posting propaganda? Good grief who would pay him? I'd want my money back.
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Gordon Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20709 Gordon Gender:	Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering Reply #121 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 7:18pm polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 7:03pm: Unforgiven wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 2:54pm: How much does Freediver get paid for posting propaganda? Good grief who would pay him? I'd want my money back. Keysar Trad?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #122 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 7:28pm

Gordon wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 7:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 7:03pm:

Unforgiven wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 2:54pm:

How much does Freediver get paid for posting propaganda?

Good grief who would pay him?

I'd want my money back.

Keysar Trad?

Hmmm lets see - Keysar Trad pays a critic to constantly trip himself up with porkies and embarrassing logical fallacies - that he actually makes Islam look good in comparison?

I can see some potential in that.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #123 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 8:30pm

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 2:44pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 19^th, 2017 at 8:13am:

In summary - it is not racist to question an obscure account of a massacre of a few hundred military aged men that happened 1400 years ago, and it is not even racist to argue that such mass-execution of military aged men who took up arms against the state they pledged loyalty to - could be justified.

How did they pledge loyalty to it?

Gandalf? You and every single Muslim that has spoken on this issue has focussed on the Jews violating the treaty they had with Muhammed. But according to Watt, the treaty did not even include the three large Jewish tribes of Medina.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21872 A cat with a view	Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering Reply #124 - Mar 4^th, 2017 at 8:45pm Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering They are Jews, and Allah hates the Jews, all Jews. .....their women and children are OK though.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #125 - Mar 5^th, 2017 at 11:03am

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 8:30pm:

But according to Watt, the treaty did not even include the three large Jewish tribes of Medina.

Rubbish. And this is the problem you get from refusing to read the sources you are happy to misquote. This is what Watt actually said - from Muhammad Prophet and Statesman:

Quote:

Somewhat similar were the intrigues in which the Jewish
clan of Qurayzah was involved and which had a tragic outcome
for it. They seem to have had a treaty with Muhammad
but it is not clear whether they were expected,
if Medina
was attacked, to give him active support
or merely to remain
neutral. They are said to have supplied some instruments for
the digging of the trench. Later a Jew from Khaybar persuaded
them that Muhammad was sure to be overwhelmed
and they changed their attitude. As they would be exposed
to Muslim retaliation should the confederacy
retire without
destroying Muhammad, they demanded hostages from both
the Meccans and their chief nomadic allies.

And then comes the spineless apologism:

Quote:

After the elimination of Qurayzah no important clan of
Jews was left in Medina, though there were probably several
small groups. One Jewish merchant is named who purchased
some of the women and children of Qurayzah! The
remaining Jews were doubtless very circumspect now, and
avoided not only hostile activity but also compromising
relationships, though
at the time of the expedition against
Khaybar their sympathies seem naturally to have been with
their fellow-Jews.
The continuing presence
of at least a few Jews in Medina
is an argument against the view sometimes put forward by
European scholars that in the second year
after the Hijrah
Muhammad adopted
a policy of clearing
all Jews out of
Medina just because they were Jews, and that he carried out
this policy with ever-increasing severity.
It was not
Muhammad's way to have policies of this kind. He had a
balanced view of the fundamentals of the contemporary
situation and of his long-term aims, and in the light of this he
moulded his day-to-day plans
in accordance with the changing
factors in current events. The occasions of his attacks
on the first two Jewish clans were no more than occasions ;
but there were also deep underlying
reasons. The Jews in
general by their verbal criticisms of the Qur'anic revelation
were trying to undermine the foundation of the whole
Islamic community ;
and . they were also giving political
support to Muhammad'senemies and to opponents
such as the
Hypocrites. In so far as the Jews abandoned these forms of
hostile activity Muhammad allowed them to live in Medina
unmolested.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #126 - Mar 5^th, 2017 at 1:04pm

One opinion.....

Quote:

After the elimination of Qurayzah

no important clan of
Jews was left in Medina, though there were probably several
small groups. One Jewish merchant is named who purchased
some of the women and children of Qurayzah! The
remaining Jews were doubtless very circumspect now, and
avoided not only hostile activity but also compromising
relationships, though
at the time of the expedition against
Khaybar their sympathies seem naturally to have been with
their fellow-Jews.

The continuing presence
of at least a few Jews in Medina
is an argument against the view sometimes put forward by
European scholars that in the second year
after the Hijrah
Muhammad adopted
a policy of clearing
all Jews out of
Medina just because they were Jews, and that he carried out
this policy with ever-increasing severity.

It was not
Muhammad's way to have policies of this kind.

He had a
balanced view of the fundamentals of the contemporary
situation and of his long-term aims, and in the light of this he
moulded his day-to-day plans
in accordance with the changing
factors in current events. The occasions of his attacks
on the first two Jewish clans were no more than occasions ;
but there were also deep underlying
reasons. The Jews in
general by their verbal criticisms of the Qur'anic revelation
were trying to undermine the foundation of the whole
Islamic community ;
and . they were also giving political
support to Muhammad'senemies and to opponents
such as the
Hypocrites. In so far as the Jews abandoned these forms of
hostile activity Muhammad allowed them to live in Medina
unmolested.

Here is an account which would suggest a different circumstance [and different motives].....

"While we were in the mosque, Allah's Apostle came out to us and said, "Let us proceed to the Jews."....The Prophet stood up and addressed them, "O Assembly of Jews! Embrace Islam and you will be safe!" The Jews replied, "O Aba-l-Qasim! You have conveyed Allah's message to us." The Prophet said, "That is what I want (from you)." He repeated his first statement for the second time, and they said, "You have conveyed Allah's message, O Aba-l-Qasim." Then he said it for the third time and added, "You should Know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to exile you from this land, so whoever among you owns some property, can sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.085.077
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.053.392

gandalf,

Today, we only have the recorded ISLAMIC accounts of what happened to the Jews who lived on the Arabian peninsula during Mohammed's day,
and,
we only have the recorded ISLAMIC accounts of why what happened to those Jewish communities, happened to those Jewish communities.

And with the ubiquitous nature of the influence of ISLAM on the Arabian peninsula [during and post Mohammed's life], we can be fairly confident, that no Jewish account survived, of what happened to the Jewish communities on the Arabian peninsula, and why, at the hand of Mohammed and his successors.

.

I will just remind you gandalf, that ISLAM is a virtuous religion, and that moslems are virtuous, wholly truthful, and wholly trustworthy persons.

Right gandalf ?

polite_gandalf wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 10:59am:

Quote:

"Peace summarises everything in Islam..."

Thanks Yadda - good quote.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #127 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 6:55pm

Quote:

They seem to have had a treaty with Muhammad, but it is not clear whether they were expected

So this is the entire basis of your claim that they deserved to die for violating this treaty?

Quote:

In so far as the Jews abandoned these forms of hostile activity Muhammad allowed them to live in Medina unmolested.

Is this the basis of your claim that Muhammed allowed any Banu Qurayza if they abandoned hostilities?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering Reply #128 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 6:59pm freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 6:55pm: So this is the entire basis of your claim that they deserved to die for violating this treaty? No, its the basis of my claim that you completely misquoted Watt.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49345 At my desk.	Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering Reply #129 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:04pm I don't recall quoting Watt. Would you like to try again?
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering Reply #130 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:07pm Keysar Trad doesn't make Muslims or Islam look good. He's a two faced parasite, living off the Islamic Schism in our society. He and Hilali preached division to Muslim Youth.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering Reply #131 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:12pm freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:04pm: I don't recall quoting Watt. Would you like to try again? freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 8:30pm: But according to Watt, the treaty did not even include the three large Jewish tribes of Medina.
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freediver

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #132 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:25pm

The treaty - the constitution of Medina - does not mention them.

That is not a quote or a misquote BTW.

Are you now saying they clearly deserved to die for violating a treaty that appears to have existed?

Quote:

In so far as the Jews abandoned these forms of hostile activity Muhammad allowed them to live in Medina unmolested.

Is this the basis of your claim that Muhammed allowed any Banu Qurayza to live if they abandoned hostilities?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #133 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:36pm

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:25pm:

Are you now saying they clearly deserved to die for violating a treaty that appears to have existed?

For once I'm not saying anything about my opinion on the matter - thats called flogging a dead horse. I'm merely proving that Watt didn't say what you claimed he said. Quite the opposite in fact.

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:25pm:

Is this the basis of your claim that Muhammed allowed any Banu Qurayza to live if they abandoned hostilities?

No. The claim was made by Ibn Ishaq - the sole source of the massacre fairy tale.

I've told you this many times before FD.

Still, you must admit Watt does a pretty good spineless apologist impression eh? You might want to think twice before misquoting - err.. I mean mis-attributing fallacious arguments to him.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering Reply #134 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:38pm The Jew slaughtering in the Quran are in the Medinan verses. Ignore the Medinan verses.
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