Australian Politics Forum - Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering Reply #135 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 7:44pm The Quran makes one passing reference to the Qurayza incident - and all it says is (paraphrasing) - 'some you killed and some you took prisoner - then later freed' - or in other words directly contradicting the Ishaq story that all adult males were killed.
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freediver

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #136 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 8:07pm

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For once I'm not saying anything about my opinion on the matter - thats called flogging a dead horse.

I only just discovered that your opinion - and the opinion of every other Muslim that has commented here - is a complete fabrication. Why is it that every time I dig a little deeper I discover that Muslims have been lying to me yet again?

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I'm merely proving that Watt didn't say what you claimed he said.

I claimed that he said that the constitution of Medina does not mention any of the three tribes. That is exactly what he said.

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No. The claim was made by Ibn Ishaq - the sole source of the massacre fairy tale.

So you never made the claim yourself?

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Still, you must admit Watt does a pretty good spineless apologist impression eh?

You'll have to explain that one.

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The Quran makes one passing reference to the Qurayza incident - and all it says is (paraphrasing) - 'some you killed and some you took prisoner - then later freed' - or in other words directly contradicting the Ishaq story that all adult males were killed.

That is not a contradiction. The adult males would have made up less than half the tribe. Am I missing something here? The Koran appears to directly support the story. Does the Koran not consider women to be people?

Is one of the widows he married from that tribe?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #137 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 8:33pm

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 8:07pm:

I claimed that he said that the constitution of Medina does not mention any of the three tribes. That is exactly what he said.

Really? Please show me FD.

In any case, the actual point you were trying to attribute to Watt is of course complete BS:

freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2017 at 8:30pm:

You and every single Muslim that has spoken on this issue has focussed on the Jews violating the treaty they had with Muhammed. But according to Watt, the treaty did not even include the three large Jewish tribes of Medina.

Watt makes it clear in several separate occassions that he believes the Qurayza were bound in treaty to Muhammad - the only contention being whether the agreement amounted to assisting the muslims militarily, or merely remaining neutral. eg - this from the only source you are ever willing to read (wikipedia)...

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Watt also rejects the existence of such a special agreement but notes that the Jews were bound by the aforementioned general agreement and by their alliance to the two Arab tribes not to support an enemy against Muhammad

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49345 At my desk.	Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering Reply #138 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 8:41pm What general agreement? Do you think Muhammed was acting in a morally righteous manner when he killed the lot of them for breaking what you now refer to as a "general agreement"? Did you make the argument yourself that Muhammed let them live if they agreed to cease hostilities?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #139 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 8:47pm

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 8:41pm:

What general agreement?

I have no idea, I'm referring to what Watt said - so you'll have to ask him. Or since that might be a bit difficult since he's dead, you could always read what he actually said. Now there's a novel idea eh!

The point is, Watt believes the Qurayza were bound by treaty, and that they broke that treaty. Despite your best efforts to pretend he didn't.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49345 At my desk.	Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering Reply #140 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 8:52pm Quote: The point is, Watt believes the Qurayza were bound by treaty Because you found a quote about a "general agreement"? And this is what you seriously put forward as a justification for genocide?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49345 At my desk.	Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering Reply #141 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 8:54pm polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 10:31am: Nope. They were all given the opportunity to disown the betrayal and repledge their loyalty to their city. What is this about Gandalf?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #142 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 9:22pm

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 8:52pm:

Because you found a quote about a "general agreement"?

A reference to Watt saying he believed they had a treaty is pretty good evidence that Watt believed they had a treaty - wouldn't you agree? You know, the opposite of the BS you are trying to spin.

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 8:52pm:

And this is what you seriously put forward as a justification for genocide?

Keep up FD, this isn't about my views, its about you spinning fairy tales about what Watt said - and how those fairy tales are being dismantled in front of your very eyes.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #143 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 9:57pm

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A reference to Watt saying he believed they had a treaty

What reference? This is what you have presented so far Gandalf:

They seem to have had a treaty with Muhammad, but it is not clear whether they were expected...

Watt also rejects the existence of such a special agreement but notes that the Jews were bound by the aforementioned general agreement

Gandalf can you imagine the Jews signing up for a treaty that permits Muhammed to demand they acknowledge him as their prophet and threaten them with violence if they don't?

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 10:31am:

Nope.
They were all given the opportunity to disown the betrayal and repledge their loyalty to their city.

What is this about Gandalf? More lies from Muslims to excuse genocide?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2015 at 4:08pm:

The rest of them had the opportunity to disown their treachery. They declined. So tough titties- off with their heads.

What form did this opportunity take Gandalf?

Oh look a previous example of Gandalf dodging this point:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 14^th, 2015 at 6:27pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2015 at 5:37pm:

Can you quote the relevant bit, or does it only make sense if I read the whole biography?

nah that would require me going to the trouble of finding it and then finding the relevant part. You are just as capable as me of doing that FD. Its also in the Sealed Nectar - but I recall you poo-pooing that as a source last time I mentioned it.

Its really up to you FD - you can believe me or not - and if not its up to you if you want to go through the source yourself.

Good luck!

If I google this Gandalf: Ibn Ishaq biography banu qurayza disown their treachery

I get this forum and your claims coming up on the first page of results, but nothing else to back it up.

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 9^th, 2014 at 11:25am:

To be POWs, the Qurayza would had to have openly renegged on the treaty they had with Muhammad, and declared their sessession from the Medinan state they were then part of.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 6:38am:

They obviously could not be trusted to remain under the treaty of Medina, or be left free to leave and join forces with the enemy like the Banu Nadir. So off with your heads traitors. Boo hoo.

Gandalf, would it be fair to describe this as a Muslim lying about whether the tribe was bound by the treaty of Medina? Why do Muslims lie about this so consistently?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:11pm:

The Banu Qurayza men who were executed were not a small number of perpetrators in amongst a majority of innocents - they all picked up arms against the muslims - in violation of their treaty.

Gandalf how do you know they all "picked up arms"?

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #144 - Mar 6^th, 2017 at 10:37pm

Ibn Hisham says 600-900 jewish men and one woman were beheaded by muslims in one day.

Watch muslims try to keep a straight face while downplaying this slaughter of jews. Roll Eyes

The women and children of the Banu Qurayza were either married off to muslims or sold into slavery.

The sky fairy told $Profit Mo to do this. Shocked

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #145 - Mar 7^th, 2017 at 6:59am

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2017 at 9:57pm:

Quote:

A reference to Watt saying he believed they had a treaty

What reference? This is what you have presented so far Gandalf:

They seem to have had a treaty with Muhammad, but it is not clear whether they were expected...

Watt also rejects the existence of such a special agreement but notes that the Jews were bound by the aforementioned general agreement

Gandalf can you imagine the Jews signing up for a treaty that permits Muhammed to demand they acknowledge him as their prophet and threaten them with violence if they don't?

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 7^th, 2015 at 10:31am:

Nope.
They were all given the opportunity to disown the betrayal and repledge their loyalty to their city.

What is this about Gandalf? More lies from Muslims to excuse genocide?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2015 at 4:08pm:

The rest of them had the opportunity to disown their treachery. They declined. So tough titties- off with their heads.

What form did this opportunity take Gandalf?

Oh look a previous example of Gandalf dodging this point:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 14^th, 2015 at 6:27pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2015 at 5:37pm:

Can you quote the relevant bit, or does it only make sense if I read the whole biography?

nah that would require me going to the trouble of finding it and then finding the relevant part. You are just as capable as me of doing that FD. Its also in the Sealed Nectar - but I recall you poo-pooing that as a source last time I mentioned it.

Its really up to you FD - you can believe me or not - and if not its up to you if you want to go through the source yourself.

Good luck!

If I google this Gandalf: Ibn Ishaq biography banu qurayza disown their treachery

I get this forum and your claims coming up on the first page of results, but nothing else to back it up.

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 9^th, 2014 at 11:25am:

To be POWs, the Qurayza would had to have openly renegged on the treaty they had with Muhammad, and declared their sessession from the Medinan state they were then part of.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 5^th, 2013 at 6:38am:

They obviously could not be trusted to remain under the treaty of Medina, or be left free to leave and join forces with the enemy like the Banu Nadir. So off with your heads traitors. Boo hoo.

Gandalf, would it be fair to describe this as a Muslim lying about whether the tribe was bound by the treaty of Medina? Why do Muslims lie about this so consistently?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:11pm:

The Banu Qurayza men who were executed were not a small number of perpetrators in amongst a majority of innocents - they all picked up arms against the muslims - in violation of their treaty.

Gandalf how do you know they all "picked up arms"?

FD do you really think I care about debtates about 3 year old quotes that have been done to death? The only reason I came back to this thread was to expose your BS suggestion that Watt didn't think the Banu Qurayza were bound by any treaty. I have done that, so mission accomplished. I'm not going to flog any more dead horses.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #146 - Mar 7^th, 2017 at 6:42pm

Of course you are running away.

Gandalf would it be fair to say that you lied about all those people taking up arms against Muslims in order to justify genocide?

And that the Jews were bound by the treaty of Medina?

And that you tried to pass of another example of forced conversion by Muhammed as Muhammed generously giving them an opportunity to "disown their treachery" in order to escape punishment?

And that when you realised you were wrong you sent me on a wild goose chase to find your evidence for you then changed tactic to deny the genocide even occurred?

Why are Muslims so consistent in their lies about this incident?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering Reply #147 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 12:22pm I'll take this hysterical outburst as FD conceding the point. Hopefully you'll think more carefully before attempting to cite someone you've never bothered to actually read.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49345 At my desk.	Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering Reply #148 - Mar 9^th, 2017 at 6:40pm Gandalf do you deny claiming that the Jewish tribes were bound by the treaty of Medina?
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Aussie

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #149 - Mar 9^th, 2017 at 6:57pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2017 at 6:40pm:

Gandalf do you deny claiming that the Jewish tribes were bound by the treaty of Medina?

Okay, let's break this down from the esoteric to the practical. It involves questions Effendi, your most favourite things to avoid.

What did the Treaty provide?

Who were the parties to it?

Did either party breach the provisions of the Treaty?

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