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Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering (Read 73162 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #165 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 2:47pm
 
Thanks FD - did you manage to get to the part where he said this was likely a version of the constitution dated after the expulsion of the 3 main jewish clans?

Can you find anything Watt said about the original constitution vis-a-vis the Qurayza?

Ooh look what I found - from your favourite source:

Quote:
Watt holds that the Qurayza and Nadir were probably mentioned in an earlier version of the Constitution requiring the parties not to support an enemy against each other


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza
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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #166 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 3:09pm
 
So you support the genocide of these Jews based on them violating a version of a treaty that no longer exists because they were edited out of it afterwards, and every copy of the original was destroyed? And you do this because a historian thinks they were "probably" a signatory to an earlier version that "seems" to have existed?

And you make this claim even though the version of the treaty that actually exists protects freedom of religion, but Muhammed started his cleansing of the three large Jewish tribes by openly threatening Jews and demanding they recognise him as their prophet?

This does not even make sense Gandalf. What kind of one sided treaty would allow Muhammed to do that, as well as expelling and slaughtering Jews on tenuous grounds, at the same time as demanding Jews actually help and support him? No treaty that any Jew in his right mind would actually sign up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina

Bernard Lewis claims that the charter was not a treaty in the modern sense, but a unilateral proclamation by Muhammad.

Muhammed's immediate succesors went on to ethnically cleans Medina, Mecca and a large part of the Arabian peninsula of all non-Muslims. Every treat entered into Muhammed was either egregiously violated by Muhammed himself or swept aside shortly after his death.

This is the sort of behaviour Muslims are compelled by their religion to support without question, no matter how absurd it gets. Muhammed deliberately and publicly provoked and abused Jews, then made them the first victims of his campaign of ethnic cleansing, all the while blaming the Jews for fighting back because they were "probably" bound by a "treaty" that no-one actually agreed to?
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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #167 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 3:17pm
 
http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Political_History_of_Islam#Hostili...

Quote:
Hostility towards Jews[edit]

In Mecca, Muhammad's attitude towards Christians and Jews was initially very positive, but their unwillingness to convert to Islam soured the relationship. It went rapidly downhill in Medina. Muhammad initially proclaimed several ordinances to win over the numerous and wealthy Jewish population. These were soon rescinded as the Jews insisted on preserving the entire Mosaic law, and did not recognize him as a prophet because he was not of the race of David. There were three large Jewish tribes in Medina when Muhammad arrived. The first to fall victim to Muhammad were the Banu Qaynuqa, who were wealthy artisans and traders. In addition to being Jewish and rejecting Muhammad's prophethood, they close links to Mecca and were the least likely to support his agenda of revenge against Mecca, posing a political threat to Muhammad's quest for power. Anecdotally, a Banu Qaynuqa goldsmith assaulted a Muslim woman, causing her to be stripped naked. He was killed by a Muslim, which sparked a series of revenge killings. Under the constitution, Muhammad's role was supposedly to resolve this conflict using the tradition of blood money and to protect religious freedom. However, having been strengthened by a recent military victory over Meccan traders, Muhammad sought to consolidate his power. Muhammad gathered the tribe in the market and addressed them as follows:

"O Jews, beware lest God bring on you the like of the retribution which he brought on Quraysh. Accept Islam, for you know that I am a prophet sent by God. You will find this in your scriptures and in God's covenant with you."

The Quraysh were Muhammad's tribe from Mecca, and the retribution is a reference to his recent military victory over them. Here, Muhammad clearly abandons his promises under the constitution of Medina, which was the initial basis of his authority. Muhammad besieged them until they surrendered, then expelled them from Medina. A Muslim who convinced Muhammad not to slaughter them, and then argued that they ought be allowed to stay in anticipation of an attack from Mecca has forever been dubbed the leader of the hypocrites. This was also the first time that Muhammad's Islamic state took 20% of the spoils of war. Following this was a second major battle with the Meccans, which the Muslims lost.

There were now two large Jewish tribes in Medina. Muhammad assassinated the chief of one of them (the Banu-Nadir), who had written erotic poetry about Muslim women, then expelled them about a year later. As the Muslims did not defeat the Banu-Nadir militarily (they were even allowed to take some possessions) Muhammad claimed 100% of their remaining possessions on behalf of God. Following this, Muhammad attempted to prevent his enemies from uniting against him, by attacking smaller Arab groups one at a time with overwhelming force.

The next time the Meccans attacked, Muhammad built a trench around parts of Medina open to cavalry attack. The Meccan siege was a failure and the Meccans returned home. During the siege, the Meccas attempted, but failed, to negotiate an alliance with the last of the three large Jewish tribes in Medina - the Banu Qurayza. After the battle, Muhammad laid siege to the Banu Qurayza, who surrendered unconditionally. Muhammad slaughtered every male in the tribe who had reached puberty, with the exception of a small few who converted to Islam. Between 600 and 1000 men were executed in a single day. The women and children were enslaved. Today, Muslims cite the failed negotiations with the Meccans, or alleged attacks by the Banu Qurayza, or claims that the Banu Qurayza violated the constitution of Medina (despite it not even mentioning them) as justification for the genocide. Instead of acknowledging the "convert or die" choice given to the Jews, modern Muslims spin this incident as Muhammad showing mercy to any Jews who agreed to cease hostilities towards Muslims and re-enter the constitution of Medina.

Muhammad then went on to attack and defeat the Jewish community of Kaybar, where many of the Banu Nadir had sought refuge. Under the terms of their surrender, Muhammad took possession of all of their lands as a collective possession of his Islamic state, and required them to provide 50% of their annual produce as a tax.

There is a disputed account of Muhammad lighting a fire on the stomach of a Jewish captive who happened to be the treasurer of his tribe, in order to encourage him to reveal the location of the Jew gold.


Gandalf how does this fit in with your insistence that even the last of Medina's three large Jewish tribes were still bound by some kind of agreement with Muhammed? Can you dream up a set of terms that allows all this to happen that you also think the Jews would have signed up for?

Are you surprised that there are no surviving copies of whatever agreement Muhammed probably seemed to have had with them?
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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #168 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 3:42pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 3:09pm:
So you support the genocide of these Jews based on them violating a version of a treaty that no longer exists because they were edited out of it afterwards, and every copy of the original was destroyed? And you do this because a historian thinks they were "probably" a signatory to an earlier version that "seems" to have existed?

And you make this claim even though the version of the treaty that actually exists protects freedom of religion, but Muhammed started his cleansing of the three large Jewish tribes by openly threatening Jews and demanding they recognise him as their prophet?

This does not even make sense Gandalf. What kind of one sided treaty would allow Muhammed to do that, as well as expelling and slaughtering Jews on tenuous grounds, at the same time as demanding Jews actually help and support him? No treaty that any Jew in his right mind would actually sign up.



Thanks FD. I'll take that as an admission you were wrong about Watt - as well as wrong that I was somehow lying about it.

Shall I expect an apology any time soon?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #169 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 3:44pm
 
Gandalf do you understand that you are making absurd leaps of logic in order to justify genocide? How are your efforts qualitatively any different to those of a modern holocaust denier?

Do Muslims often change the terms of a peace agreement after it has been agreed to (or in Muhammed's case, imposed on people) and then insist it is actually the same agreement?

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« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2017 at 3:51pm by freediver »  

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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #170 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 3:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 3:44pm:
Gandalf do you understand that you are making absurd leaps of logic in order to justify genocide? How are your efforts qualitatively any different to those of a modern holocaust denier?


So you are retracting your accusation that I lied about it then?

I would argue that labeling the execution of a few hundred warriors in a time of war who had violated a treaty as 'genocide' is itself dishonest.
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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #171 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 3:51pm
 
You lied Gandalf. We still have the treaty of Medina. It does not say the things you claim it does. Your argument rests entirely on fabrications. Any actual evidence we have contradicts you.

What do you think might have motivated Muhammed to remove all reference to the three large Jewish tribes from the treaty?

Do Muslims often change the terms of a peace agreement after it has been agreed to (or in Muhammed's case, imposed on people) and then insist it is actually the same agreement?
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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #172 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 4:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 3:51pm:
You lied Gandalf. We still have the treaty of Medina. It does not say the things you claim it does.


Watt and others said the original does mention it. They must be liars too I guess. Accepting the word of the most pre-eminent historians on this matter as plausible evidence is not lying. 

freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 3:51pm:
What do you think might have motivated Muhammed to remove all reference to the three large Jewish tribes from the treaty?


Probably because they were no longer there. Do you think it makes sense to revise a treaty when circumstances like this change?
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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #173 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 4:27pm
 
Quote:
Watt and others said the original does mention it.


Was the original lost some time in the last century?

Quote:
They must be liars too I guess.


Yes. You should produce the quote to prove your lies are their fault.

Quote:
Probably because they were no longer there. Do you think it makes sense to revise a treaty when circumstances like this change?


Sure. If you wipe out the people you previously had a peace treaty with, it makes perfect sense to edit them out of the treaty after the fact. Otherwise people might no take your treaties seriously. A good strategy would be to also blame them for violating the treaty to justify wiping them out. No-one is going to see through that.
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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #174 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 5:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 4:27pm:
Was the original lost some time in the last century?

Quote:
They must be liars too I guess.


Yes. You should produce the quote to prove your lies are their fault.


I'm merely citing what Watt has argued. Which, keeping in mind, was only brought up to correct your misrepresentation of him. I have no idea why doing this and claiming it as plausible evidence could be construed as some exercise in dishonesty.

freediver wrote on Mar 11th, 2017 at 4:27pm:
Sure. If you wipe out the people you previously had a peace treaty with, it makes perfect sense to edit them out of the treaty after the fact.


Actually it does make perfect sense - if you think about the treaty as a contemporary legal document that needed to accurately reflect the reality on the ground. And not some grand conspiratorial arse-covering exercise.
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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #175 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:09am
 
Quote:
I'm merely citing what Watt has argued.


No, you are misrepresenting it. For example, you claimed:

Quote:
Watt and others said the original does mention it.


Why would a historian make a claim such as this about a document they have not read because Muslims destroyed every copy of it?

Quote:
I have no idea why doing this and claiming it as plausible evidence could be construed as some exercise in dishonesty.


Because he did not say the things you are attributing to him. Watt merely suggests the possibility of an alternative treaty or an earlier version of the Medina treaty. You took this and fabricated an elaborate story t justify Muhammad's genocide.

Quote:
Actually it does make perfect sense - if you think about the treaty as a contemporary legal document that needed to accurately reflect the reality on the ground. And not some grand conspiratorial arse-covering exercise.


Sure, it makes sense if you think of a treaty as something other than a treaty. Like a body of law that Muhammed kept changing his mind on as his increasing power allowed him to go on the rampage.

Do Muslims often change the terms of a peace agreement after it has been agreed to (or in Muhammed's case, imposed on people) and then insist it is actually the same agreement?

How does Muhammad's actions (eg publicly threatening Jews with violence and demanding they convert to Islam, prior to beginning his ethnic cleansing) fit in with your insistence that even the last of Medina's three large Jewish tribes were still bound by some kind of agreement with Muhammed? Can you dream up a set of terms that allows all this to happen that you also think the Jews would have signed up for? How does your position even make sense?

Where is your evidence that anyone, even the supposed parties to the treaty of Medina,  actually signed up for it, rather than having it imposed on them by Muhammed as some historians believe?
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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #176 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 11:48am
 
The reason muhammad hated the Jews with such a passion is fairly obvious.

muhammad was deformed had to squat to pee, hold his penis so he didn't urinate on himself, play with his penis after peeing to get the urine out, had to marry old women as no young girls would have a bar of him and his misshapen appendage (he made up for this when he became the apostle for allah with little girls and sex slaves), muhammad was ashamed of his deformity so he crouched over to remove his trousers, removed himself well away from the rest of the men to hide his sexual disfigurement.

Then he was confronted with something which turned him lived with rage, he discovered that Jews were so well endowed they actually cut a bit off the end of theirs, this sent muhammad around the bend with his hatred of Jews, then as they say the rest is history.
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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #177 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 12:04pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 9:09am:
Watt merely suggests the possibility of an alternative treaty or an earlier version of the Medina treaty. You took this and fabricated an elaborate story t justify Muhammad's genocide.


Actually that was Watt, not me.

He makes quite a lengthy apology for Muhammad and the executions - of which violation of the treaty they had with Muhammad is a key aspect.

Long story short - for a hysterical revisionist such as yourself who is hell-bent on portraying Muhammad as the devil incarnate - Watt is about the last source you want to cite, let alone defend, to support your tin-foil hat version of history.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #178 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 12:53pm
 
You still lied about what he said Gandalf.

Quote:
Watt and others said the original does mention it.


Do Muslims often change the terms of a peace agreement after it has been agreed to (or in Muhammed's case, imposed on people) and then insist it is actually the same agreement?

How does Muhammad's actions (eg publicly threatening Jews with violence and demanding they convert to Islam, prior to beginning his ethnic cleansing) fit in with your insistence that even the last of Medina's three large Jewish tribes were still bound by some kind of agreement with Muhammed? Can you dream up a set of terms that allows all this to happen that you also think the Jews would have signed up for? How does your position even make sense?

Where is your evidence that anyone, even the supposed parties to the treaty of Medina,  actually signed up for it, rather than having it imposed on them by Muhammed as some historians believe?
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Re: Islamic justification for Jew slaughtering
Reply #179 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 3:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 12th, 2017 at 12:53pm:
You still lied about what he said Gandalf.

Quote:
Watt and others said the original does mention it.


thats exactly what he said FD:

Quote:
Watt holds that the Qurayza and Nadir were probably mentioned in an earlier version of the Constitution requiring the parties not to support an enemy against each other


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

sorry probably mentioned. Does leaving out "probably" make me a liar? Sincere apologies then.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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