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Can you support atrocities and human rights? (Read 42742 times)

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Is Islam against free speech? Reply #105 - Aug 19^th, 2015 at 4:27pm FD stop posting replies from different threads - I've warned you enough about that. I don't care if you think its more suitable here - its a nightmare for trying to track conversations. I'll be moving your post back to the original thread.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #106 - Aug 19^th, 2015 at 4:32pm

freediver wrote on Aug 19^th, 2015 at 1:04pm:

Perhaps you should have stuck this at the start of your post. I am not going to write this out again in a suitable vague, waffly manner for you, or have a platitude writing competition

Well I hope you remember next time. I think I mentioned it before. Annie Anthrax boycotts those replies and I'll do the same.

Sorry for your wasted effort that no one is going to read.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #107 - Aug 19^th, 2015 at 4:34pm

freediver wrote on Aug 19^th, 2015 at 1:02pm:

Gandalf do you claim to be a standard bearer for modern liberal values?

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 19^th, 2015 at 11:01am:

I'm not talking about the oppression in Islamic countries. That is a common deflection. The issue I'm interested here is what is undermining freedoms here in the west.

Of course. When talking about the greatest threats to freedom and democracy, it is important to bound the discussion so as to exclude the greatest threats to freedom and democracy. Anything else is deflection.

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You think its people feeling intimidated to mock Muhammad, whereas I think its our "unity ticket" parliament rubber stamping dangerous laws to undermine some pretty basic rights.

Perhaps you should be more specific Gandalf. I recall trying to convince you that holocaust denial laws are a bad idea. Is this an example of me ignoring the threat from our government?

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A big part of the problem, which Karnal has touched on before in detail, is the modern distortion of our idea of freedom. Nowadays "freedom" seems to be all about who can be the most offensive and to witch-hunt those who inevitably complain about being offended.

Please enlighten us as to the Islamic definition of freedom Gandalf.

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You will never see a 'draw Muhammad' competition that includes entrants that are not offensive caricatures of muslims.

This may have something to do with the fact that Muhammed was a Muslim. In any case, you are free to have a competition to draw Muhammed in a positive light. It is not anyone else's fault you refuse to.

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I take what you no doubt see as a quaint view that true freedom of speech should be something that is responsible and constructive to public discussion.

So you are not anti-freedom, you just want to tell people what it really means?

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You will no doubt counter that offending muslims and teaching muslims to accept offense is just what is needed for healthy public discourse. But this is absurd if you think about it:

Expecting Muslims to tolerate freedom of speech is absurd? How should we handle this intractible conflict between Islam and freedom Gandalf? Why are Muslims so different from any other group that it is absurd to expect them to be tolerant?

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humans are emotional creatures, and you are never going to be constructive if you deliberately set out to create an emotional response

So it is not the emotional response that the government needs to control, but the intention of the person eliciting the emotional response?

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But what can you do?

Here's a tip - figure out what freedom of speech really means. Get fellow Muslims to appreciate it.

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Obviously the solution is not censorship or taking away people's rights to be offensive - the only point I can make here is that we have distorted the idea of what it means to have freedom of expression.

Because we mock Islam?

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But don't pretend that such a discourse will do any good in terms of bringing about social harmony and healthy debate.

How 'useful' do you think it would be to respond to threats from head hacking Muslims by self censoring?

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Perhaps all this wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't such a one-way discourse.

Which direction is it Gandalf?

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Freeeedom lovers like you I mean - saying that the right to insult per se is the be-all and end-all of freedom

It is the be-all and end-all of freedom of speech. The right to say something you might not like.

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and that people who object to that must be ruthlessly attacked

They must be stopped.

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Some understanding of the hurt people are feeling and why its so destructive wouldn't go astray, and it can be perfectly consistent with standing up for true freedom: I condemn those people who react violently to those Muhammad cartoons - but I also condemn those who deliberately set out to offend and look for a reaction. Believe it or not, you actually can condemn someone while at the same time accept their right to be offensive.

That's why I let Muslims post here Gandalf. I'm open-minded like that.

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You seem to take the view that condemning someone for a certain expression is a bit too close to comfort to calling for banning such expressions.

This is good Gandalf. You are making an important distinction. If Muslims could limit themselves to expressing their rage in a non-violent, non-legalistic manner, we would all be on the path to freedom. Though you leave me wondering why you keep mocking the interpretation of freedom as "no-one has the right not to be offended" and suggesting there is some viable alternative.

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And you also seem to take the view that a few violent incidents automatically makes any peaceful reaction by muslims as cynical and illegitimate.

Useless is perhaps a better term. Anything short of a clear and unqualified expression of support for freedom of speech puts them in the same camp as the head hackers, in the same way that groups like the IRA had a political arm.

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Thus you will go to all sorts of ridiculous contortions to dismiss a muslim protest against a brazen attack on freedom and democracy - as somehow a front for anti-freedom.

Are you talking about the Egypt thing?

Here you go, G. This should keep you busy.

Ah.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #108 - Aug 19^th, 2015 at 4:36pm K it is indeed a liberating experience to ignore an FD "reply".
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #109 - Aug 19^th, 2015 at 6:03pm

Here is the thread where Gandalf thought a discussion of Islam and freedom of speech is inappropriate, most likely because he made the same claims there already, and they have all been debunked there already, and he doesn't like to make it too obvious.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1217813944/874#874

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FD stop posting replies from different threads - I've warned you enough about that. I don't care if you think its more suitable here - its a nightmare for trying to track conversations.

That's why I included a link in the first quote Gandalf. Obviously a discussion about freedom of speech is more appropriate in the freedom of speech thread. You dedicated your entire post to it.

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Well I hope you remember next time. I think I mentioned it before. Annie Anthrax boycotts those replies and I'll do the same.

Yes we can't have you sticking to the topic and backing up your claims can we? Just throw out endless BS accusations and expect people to ignore it. I'm sure you'll have much more fun talking to Yadda if this is too taxing for you.

Anyway, if you did not actually want to discuss the claims you made, perhaps you should not have changed the topic. Let's get back to what you were trying to avoid before that tangent.

Gandalf do you claim to be a standard bearer for modern liberal values?

Why don't you quote my post if you are not ashamed of your hysterical 'interpretation' of it? I can not see any posts of mine that are even remotely similar to what you described.

In what way is arguing in favour of freedom of speech where our government curtails it 'ignoring the elephant in the room'?

Is freedom of speech one of those "fake wishy washy western liberal morals" you accuse me of cynically using to smear Islam?

What other "faux threats" do you accuse me of waxing?

Do we imagine that people are too scared to make Muhammed videos?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #110 - Aug 19^th, 2015 at 6:34pm

freediver wrote on Aug 19^th, 2015 at 6:03pm:

Gandalf do you claim to be a standard bearer for modern liberal values?

I thought if I ignored you long enough you'd figure out the bleeding obvious for yourself. Apparently I was wrong. So to spell out the self-explanatory - yes, I do.

freediver wrote on Aug 19^th, 2015 at 6:03pm:

Why don't you quote my post if you are not ashamed of your hysterical 'interpretation' of it? I can not see any posts of mine that are even remotely similar to what you described.

Again FD, there is one, just one post of yours in this thread that was responding to my claims about the Bremer regime. And once again, if you are able to find this sole post of yours, you are more than welcome to clarify that I was wrong to interpret it as a deeply skeptical response to the idea that the American invaders - before the shiite protestors forced change - had no intentions of establishing a genuine democracy in Iraq. I can't believe you wouldn't treat such a claim with the greatest of disdain - would you? Or are you open to the idea? We can clear this up very easily FD - why don't you want to clarify this?

freediver wrote on Aug 19^th, 2015 at 6:03pm:

s freedom of speech one of those "fake washy western liberal morals" you accuse me of cynically using to smear Islam?

Great work FD - good to see you paying full attention to my lengthy response to all those matters.

Maybe if you didn't spend so much time dissecting my argument into isolated sentences you might get the overall gist.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #111 - Aug 19^th, 2015 at 6:36pm

freediver wrote on Aug 19^th, 2015 at 1:04pm:

Perhaps you should have stuck this at the start of your post.

I think I've just discovered your problem FD. You start replying even before you've finished reading what your replying to.

No wonder your posts are always full of questions that are answered in the very next sentence Tongue

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96187 Gender:	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #112 - Aug 19^th, 2015 at 8:00pm Now now, G. You gave FD an answer. That’s naughty. I’ve asked FD the same question twice. He refuses to answer. Watch this: FD, do you consider yourself to be the flagbearer for modern liberal values?
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freediver

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #113 - Aug 19^th, 2015 at 10:03pm

Quote:

I thought if I ignored you long enough you'd figure out the bleeding obvious for yourself. Apparently I was wrong. So to spell out the self-explanatory - yes, I do.

Great. We have an answer to your question. You can support atrocities and claim to be a standard bearer for western liberal morals. You can even be religiously devoted to defending their virtue. Now, are you sincere? How long have you been a standard bearer for? The same time you changed your mind on holocaust denial laws?

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Again FD, there is one, just one post of yours in this thread that was responding to my claims about the Bremer regime.

Great. You won't have any trouble backing up your hysterical rant then.

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Maybe if you didn't spend so much time dissecting my argument into isolated sentences you might get the overall gist.

Right. You are now a standard bearer for the wishy washy western liberal morals that people cynically use to smear Islam. Freedom of speech is a fake value. Promoting freedom of speech above holocaust denial laws is ignoring the elephant in the room. And we are just imagining that people are afraid to make Muhammed videos. All perfectly consistent for a Muslim. Move along people, nothing to see here.

Quote:

You start replying even before you've finished reading what your replying to.

I'm hardly going to read it twice am I?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Soren

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #114 - Aug 19^th, 2015 at 10:04pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 19^th, 2015 at 11:17am:

Soren wrote on Aug 19^th, 2015 at 10:34am:

How about political action? Financial pressure? Engaging in open discussion, flushing out the demagogues and the radicals

You mean all the stuff thats already happening? Do some research about all the muslim initiatives in the UK

UK??

When UK Muslims behave BADLY, you tell us that they have nuffin to do wiv nuffin' in Australia. But now you are all suddenly UK Muslims in Lakemba and and Auburn and wherever the hell Muslims formed a ghetto in Melbourne.

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Yadda

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #115 - Aug 20^th, 2015 at 12:40am

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 19^th, 2015 at 11:01am:

freediver wrote on Aug 19^th, 2015 at 8:08am:

Islam has been far more effective in undermining our freedom. It's not like we have an election to decide whether we should be afraid to make a Muhammed video. Much of the world still lives under the oppressive yoke of Islam. Even the 'good' examples of Muslim countries you put forward have some very worrying trends.

.....A big part of the problem, which Karnal has touched on before in detail, is the modern distortion of our idea of freedom. Nowadays "freedom" seems to be all about who can be the most offensive and to witch-hunt those who inevitably complain about being offended. You will never see a 'draw Muhammad' competition that includes entrants that are not offensive caricatures of muslims. Thats because stunts like these insist on making the two terms "freedom" and "be offensive" as completely synonymous. I take what you no doubt see as a quaint view that true freedom of speech should be something that is responsible and constructive to public discussion. You will no doubt counter that offending muslims and teaching muslims to accept offense is just what is needed for healthy public discourse. But this is absurd if you think about it: humans are emotional creatures, and you are never going to be constructive if you deliberately set out to create an emotional response. But what can you do? Obviously the solution is not censorship or taking away people's rights to be offensive - the only point I can make here is that we have distorted the idea of what it means to have freedom of expression. So by all means offend away and stand up for your right to be offensive - and I will be the first to condemn any violent reactions to it. But don't pretend that such a discourse will do any good in terms of bringing about social harmony and healthy debate.

"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."

- George Orwell

IN THE WORLD TODAY;
We have a [political] circumstance where more and more people in many western nations [i.e. the native people of western nations] are coming to the view that ISLAM is an offensive and dangerous philosophy.

Moslems [living in western nations] would of course be offended, at the people of western nations who publicly express such a view.

So we firstly have the circumstance where, many of those who are are not moslems, are offended by the real threat which ISLAM poses, to their society and to their person.

And secondly we have moslems [living in western nations] who are offended [by those who are are not moslems] [because those who are are not moslems, want the right to express that they are offended by what ISLAM is, and by the 'world view' that ISLAM teaches and wants to spread].

PROPOSITION;
Those two opposing groups of people cannot live in peace together.

Why so ?

You tell me ?

QUESTION;
Is it because many persons [who are are not moslems], are being unreasonable, in their open and public criticism of ISLAM ?

Or, is it because ISLAM is a violent and dangerous criminal [judged by our laws] philosophy ?

IMAGE....

"Behead those who insult ISLAM"

Islamic Protest - IN AUSTRALIA - on the streets of Sydney from Hyde Park to George Streets, September 15, 2012.

.

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

"There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone"....."
Koran 60:4

.

Dictionary;
malice aforethought = = the intention to kill or harm, held to distinguish unlawful killing from murder.

CRIMINAL INTENT, IN THE MOSLEM HEART
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1252898491/0#0
Quote:

Every moslem in Australia [and indeed, every moslem on the planet], by self declaring as a moslem, is self declaring a criminal intent [by our laws] against local non-moslems.

ISLAM is a criminal compact among moslems, to wage a violent 'religious' war against non-moslems ['disbelievers'].

.....Basically, fundamentally, all ISLAMIC doctrine translates as enmity, and encourages [criminal] violence, towards ALL non-moslems.

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #116 - Aug 20^th, 2015 at 12:47am

freediver wrote on Aug 19^th, 2015 at 10:03pm:

Quote:

I thought if I ignored you long enough you'd figure out the bleeding obvious for yourself. Apparently I was wrong. So to spell out the self-explanatory - yes, I do.

Again FD, there is one, just one post of yours in this thread that was responding to my claims about the Bremer regime.

Great. You won't have any trouble backing up your hysterical rant then.

Quote:

Maybe if you didn't spend so much time dissecting my argument into isolated sentences you might get the overall gist.

You start replying even before you've finished reading what your replying to.

I'm hardly going to read it twice am I?

FD, do you consider yourself to be the standard bearer for modern liberal values?

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Yadda

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #117 - Aug 20^th, 2015 at 1:18am

Yadda wrote on Aug 20^th, 2015 at 12:40am:

QUESTION;
Is it because many persons [who are are not moslems], are being unreasonable, in their open and public criticism of ISLAM ?

Or, is it because ISLAM is a violent and dangerous criminal [judged by our laws] philosophy ?

gandalf,

Why shouldn't every single person who is a native of a western nation [and who is not a moslem], HAVE THE RIGHT to be offended by ISLAM, and be offended by what ISLAM is ?

gandalf,

Are you going to tell us, that those who are not moslems should not HAVE THE RIGHT to be offended by ISLAM, and not HAVE THE RIGHT to be offended by what ISLAM is ?

Or, is it just that you feel that those persons who are are not moslems, should not be permitted to publicly express their 'being offended', by what ISLAM is ?

But seriously, there are some people, who are not moslems, who are really, really offensive, in how they publicly express themselves.

And i am sure that you would agree with that statement.

Right, gandalf ?

IMAGE....

"Behead those who insult ISLAM"

Islamic Protest - IN AUSTRALIA - on the streets of Sydney from Hyde Park to George Streets, September 15, 2012.

IMAGE.....

"Freedom of expression GO TO HELL!"

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #118 - Aug 20^th, 2015 at 7:42am freediver wrote on Aug 19^th, 2015 at 10:03pm: Great. You won't have any trouble backing up your hysterical rant then. Am I wrong? That was my interpretation. If I was wrong in my interpretation just say so FD - we can clear this up easily. Why is it so hard? I really don't understand.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #119 - Aug 20^th, 2015 at 7:46am

freediver wrote on Aug 19^th, 2015 at 10:03pm:

Great. We have an answer to your question. You can support atrocities and claim to be a standard bearer for western liberal morals.

Not really. Its not a matter of what you think about yourself, but if you accept the sincerity of others.

Do you accept my sincerity? Do you accept that I can believe Muhammad's actions were justified while at the same time I can believe I am a standard bearer for western liberal morals? I know at least 2 people here who flatly reject such a notion. Maybe 3. Soren seems a bit conflicted.

I think its an important issue to discuss if we are interested in constructive dialogue. If we start from the premise that your opponent is a liar and interested only in deceiving - then we are always doomed to failure.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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