Australian Politics Forum - Can you support atrocities and human rights?

Soren

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #150 - Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 7:05pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 5:18pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 21^st, 2015 at 6:44pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 21^st, 2015 at 6:01pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 21^st, 2015 at 5:43pm:

You don't believe them when they say they act in the name of Islam

100% wrong.

Oh, so you accept that they act in the name of Islam??

That's what I have been saying for years - and thought you insisted that Islam and Muslims have nuffin' to do wiv nuffin'.

I can feel a really twisted yeah-but-no-but coming on......

Soren I accept that they believe they are acting the name of Islam - that's the point. I can therefore trust them at their word that they intend to fight and die in Syria. So I again I ask the question - what threat does such a person pose to Australia?

Well, unless they win or they are all killed, none. But they are not going to win and they will not all be killed.

Pick up the thread from there Gandy. Are the scales going to fall from their eyes when ISIS is beaten? No. Are they going to jump off a cliff? No.

They are going to continue the fight elsewhere - in countries that let them in after they are scattered.

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Karnal

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #151 - Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 8:21pm

Soren wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 7:05pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 5:18pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 21^st, 2015 at 6:44pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 21^st, 2015 at 6:01pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 21^st, 2015 at 5:43pm:

You don't believe them when they say they act in the name of Islam

100% wrong.

Oh, so you accept that they act in the name of Islam??

That's what I have been saying for years - and thought you insisted that Islam and Muslims have nuffin' to do wiv nuffin'.

I can feel a really twisted yeah-but-no-but coming on......

Soren I accept that they believe they are acting the name of Islam - that's the point. I can therefore trust them at their word that they intend to fight and die in Syria. So I again I ask the question - what threat does such a person pose to Australia?

Well, unless they win or they are all killed, none. But they are not going to win and they will not all be killed.

Pick up the thread from there Gandy. Are the scales going to fall from their eyes when ISIS is beaten?

ISIS won't be beaten, OB. In most cases, the scales will fall from their eyes when they see what ISIS have done.

Civilization is not such a thin veneer. Air conditioning, cars and shopping malls are things that stick in the psyche, as is a critical education. Believe it or not, Australians are quite good at spotting bullsh!t.

The kids who go off to fight should be over it in no time. The ones who don't get blown up come around in the end. The life of a Spartan might look good on paper, but in practice, it's a drag.

Your favourite poster-boy Zachy Mallah is one such kid who came back from Syria and spread the news. David Hicks is one who came back from Guantanamo Bay. Death is easy. Life in ISIS-land is not so easy. If you're a zealot, you'd see hypocrisy everywhere. ISIS is not what it's cranked up to be.

Death cults never are.

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Soren

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #152 - Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:08pm

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 8:21pm:

ISIS won't be beaten, OB. In most cases, the scales will fall from their eyes when they see what ISIS have done.

Civilization is not such a thin veneer. Air conditioning, cars and shopping malls are things that stick in the psyche, as is a critical education. Believe it or not, Australians are quite good at spotting bullsh!t.

The kids who go off to fight should be over it in no time. The ones who don't get blown up come around in the end. The life of a Spartan might look good on paper, but in practice, it's a drag.

Your favourite poster-boy Zachy Mallah is one such kid who came back from Syria and spread the news. David Hicks is one who came back from Guantanamo Bay. Death is easy. Life in ISIS-land is not so easy. If you're a zealot, you'd see hypocrisy everywhere. ISIS is not what it's cranked up to be.

Death cults never are.

You make the massive and by now expected blunder that you always make, PB - you think you are the measure of all things and others think like you.

You are nothing but a a supremely self-conceited and self-deluding PB.

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Karnal

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #153 - Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:14pm

Soren wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:08pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 8:21pm:

ISIS won't be beaten, OB. In most cases, the scales will fall from their eyes when they see what ISIS have done.

Civilization is not such a thin veneer. Air conditioning, cars and shopping malls are things that stick in the psyche, as is a critical education. Believe it or not, Australians are quite good at spotting bullsh!t.

The kids who go off to fight should be over it in no time. The ones who don't get blown up come around in the end. The life of a Spartan might look good on paper, but in practice, it's a drag.

Your favourite poster-boy Zachy Mallah is one such kid who came back from Syria and spread the news. David Hicks is one who came back from Guantanamo Bay. Death is easy. Life in ISIS-land is not so easy. If you're a zealot, you'd see hypocrisy everywhere. ISIS is not what it's cranked up to be.

Death cults never are.

You make the massive and by now expected blunder that you always make, PB - you think you are the measure of all things and others think like you.

You are nothing but a a supremely self-conceited and self-deluding PB.

Thanks, old chap. Do you have an opinion on the matter, or shall we leave it at that?

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Soren

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #154 - Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:26pm

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:14pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:08pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 8:21pm:

ISIS won't be beaten, OB. In most cases, the scales will fall from their eyes when they see what ISIS have done.

Civilization is not such a thin veneer. Air conditioning, cars and shopping malls are things that stick in the psyche, as is a critical education. Believe it or not, Australians are quite good at spotting bullsh!t.

The kids who go off to fight should be over it in no time. The ones who don't get blown up come around in the end. The life of a Spartan might look good on paper, but in practice, it's a drag.

Your favourite poster-boy Zachy Mallah is one such kid who came back from Syria and spread the news. David Hicks is one who came back from Guantanamo Bay. Death is easy. Life in ISIS-land is not so easy. If you're a zealot, you'd see hypocrisy everywhere. ISIS is not what it's cranked up to be.

Death cults never are.

You make the massive and by now expected blunder that you always make, PB - you think you are the measure of all things and others think like you.

You are nothing but a a supremely self-conceited and self-deluding PB.

Thanks, old chap. Do you have an opinion on the matter, or shall we leave it at that?

I gave you my view already, PB - they do not think like you. Get over yourself.

They are not beheading the 82 year old director of antiquities in Palmyra because they think like you.

Don't be SOOOO bugger self-conceited and smug for once.

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Karnal

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #155 - Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:28pm

Soren wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:26pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:14pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:08pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 8:21pm:

ISIS won't be beaten, OB. In most cases, the scales will fall from their eyes when they see what ISIS have done.

Civilization is not such a thin veneer. Air conditioning, cars and shopping malls are things that stick in the psyche, as is a critical education. Believe it or not, Australians are quite good at spotting bullsh!t.

The kids who go off to fight should be over it in no time. The ones who don't get blown up come around in the end. The life of a Spartan might look good on paper, but in practice, it's a drag.

Your favourite poster-boy Zachy Mallah is one such kid who came back from Syria and spread the news. David Hicks is one who came back from Guantanamo Bay. Death is easy. Life in ISIS-land is not so easy. If you're a zealot, you'd see hypocrisy everywhere. ISIS is not what it's cranked up to be.

Death cults never are.

You make the massive and by now expected blunder that you always make, PB - you think you are the measure of all things and others think like you.

You are nothing but a a supremely self-conceited and self-deluding PB.

Thanks, old chap. Do you have an opinion on the matter, or shall we leave it at that?

I gave you my view already, PB

Ah.

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Soren

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #156 - Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:47pm

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:28pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:26pm:

I gave you my view already, PB - they do not think like you. Get over yourself.

They are not beheading the 82 year old director of antiquities in Palmyra because they think like you.

Don't be SOOOO bugger self-conceited and smug for once.

Ah.

Glad to see the penny drop.

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Karnal

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #157 - Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 10:00pm

Soren wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:47pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:28pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:26pm:

I gave you my view already, PB - they do not think like you. Get over yourself.

They are not beheading the 82 year old director of antiquities in Palmyra because they think like you.

Don't be SOOOO bugger self-conceited and smug for once.

Ah.

Glad to see the penny drop.

O brave new world with such marvellous things in't.

Soren wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2015 at 9:08pm:

You are nothing but a a supremely self-conceited and self-deluding PB.

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freediver

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #158 - Aug 23^rd, 2015 at 12:49pm

Gandalf can you elaborate on this vision of yourself as the standard bearer for modern western liberal morals? Is there any particular reason why you use the term morals rather than values?

Quote:

Soren I accept that they believe they are acting the name of Islam - that's the point. I can therefore trust them at their word that they intend to fight and die in Syria.

With the exception of suicide bombers, they do not go to war with the intention of dying Gandalf. They go to war with the intention of winning. Saying you are prepared to face death is not the same as promising you will die.

Quote:

So I again I ask the question - what threat does such a person pose to Australia?

The risk is that they will break their 'promise' to die and return to Australia, or they will have some kind of success and further destabilise the region. There is also the risk that they will inspire more home grown terrorism, like the Sydney siege.

Quote:

You apologise for, and indulge in the sorts of fake morals I mentioned.

So you say, but when I ask you to be more specific, you waffle about western leaders being collectively hypocritical.

Quote:

I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not being behaving like this in a cynical way

Let's start with you saying what these fake morals are that you accuse me of. If you want to backpedal, you will have to go all the way Gandalf. Last time you did this you said you would take it back, but then you slithered off instead.

Quote:

You are misguided rather than deceitful.

How so?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96478	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #159 - Aug 23^rd, 2015 at 1:18pm FD, can you elaborate on your vision of yourself as the standard bearer of modern liberal values such as Freeeedom, military intervention, Iraq as the next South Korea, etc, etc, etc? I asked you first, remember.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #160 - Aug 23^rd, 2015 at 8:22pm

freediver wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2015 at 12:49pm:

So you say, but when I ask you to be more specific, you waffle about western leaders being collectively hypocritical.

I take it you genuinely believe America invaded Iraq with every intention of flowering the Iraqi people with democracy and freedom.

Is that specific enough for you?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49400 At my desk.	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #161 - Aug 24^th, 2015 at 7:07am As far as I know they intended to set up democracy. After all, that is what they did. How is that a fake moral? It sounds like a question of fact to me. Democracy means that the Iraqi people get to choose what this means in terms of freedom. You cannot expect to control that outcome.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #162 - Aug 24^th, 2015 at 7:32am

freediver wrote on Aug 24^th, 2015 at 7:07am:

As far as I know

Thats certainly part of your problem. For a reasonably intelligent person you are shockingly ignorant of most of these subject matters. And this seems at least in part to be willful - in fact you seem to revel in not taking the time to research and understand topics you love to rail about. Instead you just pose incriminating questions to other people in order to tease out the "right" information for ingenious gotcha moments.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #163 - Aug 24^th, 2015 at 8:25am

freediver wrote on Aug 24^th, 2015 at 7:07am:

As far as I know they intended to set up democracy. After all, that is what they did. How is that a fake moral? It sounds like a question of fact to me.

Democracy means that the Iraqi people get to choose what this means in terms of freedom. You cannot expect to control that outcome.

As an addendum to the above, I remember at the time feeling great admiration for the bravery of the Iraqi people who were coming in from their villages and the outlying areas, trekking for hours to get to the nearest towns in order to queue up for yet more hours so that they could vote in this their first democratic election.

The Far Right theocracy advocates and the Sunnis were vowing to bomb these pro-democracy voters at the polling booths. It took a lot of raw courage to stand there risking their lives to support the US initiative in replacing generational tyranny with a representative democracy.

8 million of them made the pilgrimage to the polling booths ...

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Karnal

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #164 - Aug 24^th, 2015 at 9:30am

freediver wrote on Aug 24^th, 2015 at 7:07am:

As far as I know they intended to set up democracy. After all, that is what they did. How is that a fake moral? It sounds like a question of fact to me.

Democracy means that the Iraqi people get to choose what this means in terms of freedom. You cannot expect to control that outcome.

The US prevented a huge part of the Iraqi population from participating in and running for office. The Ba’ath party was the only political organisation in Iraq at the time they invaded.

The reason they held off on elections for so long is they could not predict the outcome. Their handpicked presidential candidates were not electable, so they went with Plan B: anarchy.

Turned out rather well, wouldn’t you say?

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