Australian Politics Forum - Can you support atrocities and human rights?

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49222 At my desk.	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #195 - Sep 1^st, 2015 at 1:04pm OK Gandalf, let's keep it simple for you. What 'morals' are you the standard bearer for?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #196 - Sep 1^st, 2015 at 3:02pm non-wishy washy/faux ones.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96187 Gender:	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #197 - Sep 1^st, 2015 at 5:03pm freediver wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 1:04pm: OK Gandalf, let's keep it simple for you. What 'morals' are you the standard bearer for? Good question, FD. You?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49222 At my desk.	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #198 - Sep 1^st, 2015 at 9:19pm So you expect us to accept your sincerity without question when you claim to be the standard bearer for morals you refuse to identify?
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Soren

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #199 - Sep 1^st, 2015 at 9:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2015 at 7:53pm:

It was monstrous and unjustified if move away from this sort of waffly handwaving and look at the actual evidence: like the assessment of the US's own strategic bombing survey in its 1946 report:

Quote:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945 [the date of the planned American invasion], Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

But hey, some people genuinely believe it was necessary - and thats the point of this thread. Just as I can't dismiss those people when they state their genuine regard to modern human rights etc - so too you can't dismiss muslims claiming the same, at the same time they believe the Banu Qurayza executions were necessary.

"suggestion that the 1945 nuclear bombing of Japan execution of the warriors amongst the Banu Qurayza was “without any military or moral justification” is at best simplistic.

Ah, so it's all about co-opting the Bomb to justify Mohammed.

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Karnal

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #200 - Sep 1^st, 2015 at 10:12pm

freediver wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 9:19pm:

So you expect us to accept your sincerity without question when you claim to be the standard bearer for morals you refuse to identify?

Which morals do you identify, FD? I have asked.

Would you prefer I cited them for you and referenced my own posts as proof of your morals?

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Karnal

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #201 - Sep 1^st, 2015 at 10:14pm

Soren wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 9:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2015 at 7:53pm:

It was monstrous and unjustified if move away from this sort of waffly handwaving and look at the actual evidence: like the assessment of the US's own strategic bombing survey in its 1946 report:

Quote:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945 [the date of the planned American invasion], Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

But hey, some people genuinely believe it was necessary - and thats the point of this thread. Just as I can't dismiss those people when they state their genuine regard to modern human rights etc - so too you can't dismiss muslims claiming the same, at the same time they believe the Banu Qurayza executions were necessary.

"suggestion that the 1945 nuclear bombing of Japan execution of the warriors amongst the Banu Qurayza was “without any military or moral justification” is at best simplistic.

Ah, so it's all about co-opting the Bomb to justify Mohammed.

Carpetbomb them.

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Soren

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #202 - Sep 1^st, 2015 at 10:56pm

Karnal wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 10:14pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 9:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2015 at 7:53pm:

It was monstrous and unjustified if move away from this sort of waffly handwaving and look at the actual evidence: like the assessment of the US's own strategic bombing survey in its 1946 report:

Quote:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945 [the date of the planned American invasion], Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

But hey, some people genuinely believe it was necessary - and thats the point of this thread. Just as I can't dismiss those people when they state their genuine regard to modern human rights etc - so too you can't dismiss muslims claiming the same, at the same time they believe the Banu Qurayza executions were necessary.

"suggestion that the 1945 nuclear bombing of Japan execution of the warriors amongst the Banu Qurayza was “without any military or moral justification” is at best simplistic.

Ah, so it's all about co-opting the Bomb to justify Mohammed.

Carpetbomb them.

Good point Paki BVgger.

If the US had the Bomb in 1941, they should have used it pronto.

Then again, aggressors like Japan wouldn't have dared to attack Pearl Harbour of the nuclear retaliation had been an option. Aggressors like that smell the weakness and attack.

In the case of Japan, the historical evidence shows that 'carpet bombing woulda been too good for 'em".

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Brian Ross

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #203 - Sep 1^st, 2015 at 10:58pm

Soren wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 10:56pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 10:14pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 9:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2015 at 7:53pm:

It was monstrous and unjustified if move away from this sort of waffly handwaving and look at the actual evidence: like the assessment of the US's own strategic bombing survey in its 1946 report:

Quote:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945 [the date of the planned American invasion], Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

But hey, some people genuinely believe it was necessary - and thats the point of this thread. Just as I can't dismiss those people when they state their genuine regard to modern human rights etc - so too you can't dismiss muslims claiming the same, at the same time they believe the Banu Qurayza executions were necessary.

"suggestion that the 1945 nuclear bombing of Japan execution of the warriors amongst the Banu Qurayza was “without any military or moral justification” is at best simplistic.

Ah, so it's all about co-opting the Bomb to justify Mohammed.

Carpetbomb them.

Good point Paki BVgger.

If the US had the Bomb in 1941, they should have used it pronto.

Then again, aggressors like Japan wouldn't have dared to attack Pearl Harbour of the nuclear retaliation had been an option. Aggressors like that smell the weakness and attack.

In the case of Japan, the historical evidence shows that 'carpet bombing woulda been too good for 'em".

Really? Care to provide us with that evidence, Soren? I'd be interested to see how you justify the deaths of millions of innocent people... Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 138385 Gender:	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #204 - Sep 1^st, 2015 at 11:04pm Brian Ross wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 10:58pm: I'd be interested to see how you justify the deaths of millions of innocent people... Simple. They're different. Sore End doesn't like anything different.
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Soren

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #205 - Sep 1^st, 2015 at 11:14pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 10:58pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 10:56pm:

Karnal wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 10:14pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 9:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2015 at 7:53pm:

It was monstrous and unjustified if move away from this sort of waffly handwaving and look at the actual evidence: like the assessment of the US's own strategic bombing survey in its 1946 report:

Quote:

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945 [the date of the planned American invasion], Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

But hey, some people genuinely believe it was necessary - and thats the point of this thread. Just as I can't dismiss those people when they state their genuine regard to modern human rights etc - so too you can't dismiss muslims claiming the same, at the same time they believe the Banu Qurayza executions were necessary.

"suggestion that the 1945 nuclear bombing of Japan execution of the warriors amongst the Banu Qurayza was “without any military or moral justification” is at best simplistic.

Ah, so it's all about co-opting the Bomb to justify Mohammed.

Carpetbomb them.

Good point Paki BVgger.

If the US had the Bomb in 1941, they should have used it pronto.

Then again, aggressors like Japan wouldn't have dared to attack Pearl Harbour of the nuclear retaliation had been an option. Aggressors like that smell the weakness and attack.

In the case of Japan, the historical evidence shows that 'carpet bombing woulda been too good for 'em".

Really? Care to provide us with that evidence, Soren? I'd be interested to see how you justify the deaths of millions of innocent people... Roll Eyes

Oh?! It's millions now, is it?

Are you sure? Not billions?

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Brian Ross

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #206 - Sep 1^st, 2015 at 11:34pm

Soren wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 11:14pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 10:58pm:

Really? Care to provide us with that evidence, Soren? I'd be interested to see how you justify the deaths of millions of innocent people... Roll Eyes

Oh?! It's millions now, is it?

Are you sure? Not billions?

Getting desperate, Soren? What was the population of Japan in 1941? Approximately 73 million in the Home Islands and another 30 million in Korea and Formosa. [Source] Hardly "billions"! Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #207 - Sep 1^st, 2015 at 11:35pm freediver wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 9:19pm: So you expect us to accept your sincerity without question when you claim to be the standard bearer for morals you refuse to identify? I dont expect anything. Nonetheless my morals have been clearly identified.
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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21842 A cat with a view	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #208 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 9:50am greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 11:04pm: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 10:58pm: I'd be interested to see how you justify the deaths of millions of innocent people... Simple. They're different. Racist!
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Yadda

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #209 - Sep 2^nd, 2015 at 10:02am

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 11:35pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 1^st, 2015 at 9:19pm:

So you expect us to accept your sincerity without question when you claim to be the standard bearer for morals you refuse to identify?

I dont expect anything. Nonetheless my morals have been clearly identified.

Yes gandalf.

You are a moslem, AND, a person who supports secularism, and democracy.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 8:44pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2013 at 7:57pm:

That is not what I said. I even included an example in the hope it might help you understand the point.

Sorry, I must be still missing it. I'll just clarify my position (again), and hopefully it will answer whatever you want answered:
- I support secularism
- I support democracy
- I oppose dictatorships

Opposing dictatorships means all dictatorships - whether they be secular or religious. Saying I support secularism doesn't mean I support secular dictators - Clear?

And yet...

moslems consider the Koran to be the direct, and inerrant word of Allah.

And moslems consider the Koran and therefore ISLAMIC law, as the most important source of information [and instruction] for a moslem, on how a moslem should conduct themselves, in their lives.

FOR EXAMPLE, JUST LOOK WHAT A VERY PROMINENT AND WELL KNOWN EGYPTIAN MOSLEM SAID;

---------- >

Quote:

Mild mannered - Mohammed Morsi -
Ex-President of Egypt

"The Koran is our constitution"

"The Prophet Muhammad is our leader"

"Jihad is our path"

"AND DEATH FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS OUR MOST LOFTY ASPIRATION!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NtiUMOFFg dead link
try....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCJZQSwVKy0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NtiUMOFFg

.

And what about the opinion of another prominent moslem on the 'world stage' today, .....Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the current Turkish President ????

IMAGE...

What does this man, 'modernist', Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish President was democratically elected to office, say about;

jurisdictional law ???

secularism ???

the democratic process ???

Google;

Erdogan, "Sovereignty Belongs Unconditionally and Always To Allah"

Google;

Erdogan, "One Cannot Be a Muslim, and Secular"

ALSO, see below, what 'modernist' Recep Tayyip Erdogan had to say to Turkish immigrants, living in Germany.

Quote:

Turkish PM to Muslims in Germany: "Assimilation is a crime against humanity"

Cologne, Germany -- A crowd of 16,000 expatriate Turks cheered Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan at a vast indoor auditorium in Germany on Sunday as he told them to resist assimilation into the West.

...."Assimilation is a crime against humanity," he told the crowd. Many Turks had travelled from France, Belgium and the Netherlands to hear his hour-long address in the shiny venue, the Koelnarena.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/02/turkish-pm-to-muslims-in-germany-assimilation-...

<------

n.b.

When using the word, 'humanity' above, Recep Tayyip Erdogan is referring singularly, to the elevated spiritual nature of the moslem.

Because ISLAM [whose tenets and laws, Recep Tayyip Erdogan is familiar with], states that infidels are vile animals, that can be slaughtered. [see info at the bottom of this post]

To the pure moslem, the infidel is not a part of humanity.

.

And, what have other 'Aussie' moslems claimed, regarding democracy [i.e. a secular political system] ????

Quote:

"[a respected moslem community spokesman has] called on Australian Muslims to spurn secular democracy and Western notions of moderate Islam...
...[moslems in Australia were told] that democracy is "haram" (forbidden) for Muslims, whose political engagement should be be based purely on Islamic law.
"We must adhere to Islam and Islam alone," Mr Hanif [said]"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/australia-members-of-hizb-ut-tahrir-say-countr...

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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