Australian Politics Forum - Can you support atrocities and human rights?

Karnal

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #240 - Sep 7^th, 2015 at 9:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 7^th, 2015 at 8:53pm:

FD your problem is looking at this only in terms of a simplistic "allowed" or "not allowed" dichotomy. Maybe you're right, and the distinction is too subtle for you. In fact so much of this debate seems too subtle for you. For example how on earth you could come to the conclusion that the only, or even the primary grievance muslims feel over the cartoon furor is that people mock Muhammad - is beyond me.

FD once had an argument with Abu about raping your wife. FD argued this was legal within Islam because Muhammed did not proscribe a punishment for such things - for a good twenty pages.

Abu gave up and got written up for evasion. I think FD won that one.

FD’s argument was that the law is all about penalties - cutting off hands, stoning, beheading, etc. Abu argued Quranic principles, but this didn’t wash with FD. He needed a punishment to clarify an ethical position. Otherwise, no dice.

Lines, rings, morals, ethics, standard-bearers, defenders-of. We need to be precice.

It is a jolly world, no?

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« Last Edit: Sep 7^th, 2015 at 9:38pm by Karnal »

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freediver

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #241 - Sep 7^th, 2015 at 9:41pm

Not just the absence of punishment for rape. Abu also considered sex on demand a duty on the wife's part, and trotted out some rather disturbing justifications for this - eg it 'costs' the wife nothing. There is no concept of consent in Islam. Then there is the whole sex slave thing. You put these together, and you institutionalise rape. Countering with "oh but we consider it to be not very nice, disrespectful even" doesn't really cut it. Islam is an ideology that decriminalises rape, facilitates rape, and defines it out of existence, but then somehow claims the moral high ground.

Quote:

FD your problem is looking at this only in terms of a simplistic "allowed" or "not allowed" dichotomy.

No I am not. The people who murdered the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists are using an alternative method to erode freedom of speech. But if I broaden what you say to include that, then that is the extent of what freedom of speech means.

Quote:

For example how on earth you could come to the conclusion that the only, or even the primary grievance muslims feel over the cartoon furor is that people mock Muhammad - is beyond me.

If you can think of a grievance that ought to over-ride freedom of speech, or that can be 'addressed' to their satisfaction, please share. Otherwise, your point is moot.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95894 Gender:	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #242 - Sep 7^th, 2015 at 11:55pm That’s strange, FD. I remember Abu arguing the exact opposite. He said Islam was specifically against forced sex within marriage and gave quotes to back it up. Your argument was that these didn’t count because he didn’t quote any punishments. You got him there, eh?
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freediver

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #243 - Sep 8^th, 2015 at 12:30pm

The only quote I recall is something about treating women with respect, which must be taken with a grain of salt coming from the same ideology that permits wife beating, sex slavery etc, and seems to focus more on tarnishing the woman's reputation rather than respecting her personal dignity.

Seeing as you have such a short memory, here is my actual argument again:

Not just the absence of punishment for rape. Abu also considered sex on demand a duty on the wife's part, and trotted out some rather disturbing justifications for this - eg it 'costs' the wife nothing. There is no concept of consent in Islam. Then there is the whole sex slave thing. You put these together, and you institutionalise rape. Countering with "oh but we consider it to be not very nice, disrespectful even" doesn't really cut it. Islam is an ideology that decriminalises rape, facilitates rape, and defines it out of existence, but then somehow claims the moral high ground.

Can you quote me saying that Islam directly supports forced sex in Marriage? Wife beating in Islam is for more practical reasons, like to knock her out of her nasty mood or humiliate her into submission. A husband should not have to 'force' his wife to do something that is his right and her duty. Of course, if a man did rape his wife or sex slave for some unfathomable reason, he would not get punished, but he would feel bad about it if he was a good Muslim.

It is the thought that counts.

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« Last Edit: Sep 8^th, 2015 at 12:40pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #244 - Sep 8^th, 2015 at 1:05pm

freediver wrote on Sep 7^th, 2015 at 9:41pm:

If you can think of a grievance that ought to over-ride freedom of speech

There you go again - any criticism of freeeedom must necessarily be aimed at over-riding actual freedom of speech. Nothing could be further from the truth. I can denounce Charlie Hebdo as bigots who should not be doing what they do - and still stand up for free speech. And I can also say that muslims (unacceptably) reacting violently to offensive cartoons is merely the tip of the iceberg of far deeper societal issues related to alienation, opportunity, impoverishment etc - that should be addressed, and still stand up for free speech. Such positions are obviously unacceptable under freeeeedom.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6353	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #245 - Sep 8^th, 2015 at 5:40pm Gandalf wrote: Quote: far deeper societal issues related to alienation, opportunity, impoverishment etc - that should be addressed, What are muslims doing about this, apart from blaming everybody else, Gandalf?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #246 - Sep 8^th, 2015 at 6:04pm Trying to address them, moses.
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freediver

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #247 - Sep 8^th, 2015 at 6:30pm

Quote:

There you go again - any criticism of freeeedom must necessarily be aimed at over-riding actual freedom of speech. Nothing could be further from the truth. I can denounce Charlie Hebdo as bigots who should not be doing what they do - and still stand up for free speech.

By calling for self censorship in response to terrorism aimed at achieving self-censorship?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #248 - Sep 8^th, 2015 at 8:04pm

See this is what you do FD - twist complicated issues into simplistic black and white with these silly one liners.

Obviously its implicit that people have the right to be dicks - but once we all accept that premise, freedom should be compatible with anything and everything - up to and including imploring people not to be dicks. Think about where your simplistic logic ends up: if you adhere to your version of freedom, you must self-censor lest you end up agreeing with the terrorists - right? Under my version of freedom (true freedom), I can actually agree with the terrorists that offending is wrong and that people should stop doing it, while at the same time be unequivocal in standing up for people's right to offend, and condemning those who attempt to take that right away. Your freedom on the other hand is spineless - terrified of expressing the 'wrong' freedom - lest it sounds too much like what the terrorists are complaining about.

Its a point I fear you are no longer capable of understanding. You are so hardened by this hysterical anti-Islam campaign (Islam represents the greatest threat to our freedom Roll Eyes

) - you have forgotton what freedom is actually about. Your distorted version says you have to stand in "solidarity" with hate-mongers who are victims of their own bigotry, and wouldn't dream of criticising them or calling them out for what they are - bigots. Followers of freeeeedom are the most spineless and self-censoring of the lot - ironic eh?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95894 Gender:	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #249 - Sep 8^th, 2015 at 11:59pm Now now, G, you can’t say that. That’s apologism. Blame Islam - that’s Freeeeedom.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49075 At my desk.	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #250 - Sep 9^th, 2015 at 1:07pm Have yo lost interest in the rape discussion Karnal?
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95894 Gender:	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #251 - Sep 9^th, 2015 at 5:03pm freediver wrote on Sep 9^th, 2015 at 1:07pm: Have yo lost interest in the rape discussion Karnal? Yes, FD, but it's good to see you communicating again.
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