Australian Politics Forum - Can you support atrocities and human rights?

Lord Herbert

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #45 - Aug 15^th, 2015 at 8:39pm

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2015 at 7:18pm:

Gandalf brought this topic up in about half a dozen other threads recently, mostly in the context of Muhammed murdering those Jews. Did you not notice?

Yes, I have noticed gandalf's increasingly paranoid hysteria over this issue that has driven him almost feral with desperation to convince those in the peanut galleries that Mohammed's lapse into genocidal violence was a righteous and just cause.

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2015 at 7:18pm:

He seemed to think I was afraid to discuss it, so he hijacked several threads with the topic.

Correct.

Frankly I see an unhealthy masochistic impulse here that has seen gandalf purposefully engineering a 'Ground Hog Day' on the painful defeats he has experienced so many times at your hands on this very same subject.

He effected what some might believe to have been a series of Home Invasions of different threads in order to expose himself for yet more pain and humiliation over Mohammad's somewhat unsaintly behaviour towards those poor unfortunate 800 Jews.

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2015 at 7:18pm:

Anyway, Karnal is right. We should let him have a thread about it now that he went to the trouble of starting a dedicated one. If you want to talk about the Jew slaughtering incidents, this is a good thread:

Frankly I think this particular moral gadfly will forever torment gandalf's more honest and secular self despite his protestations on Mohammad's behalf.

It's a cross he'll just have to bear as a blind follower of Islam and its legions of apologist rationalisers.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #46 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 7:36am

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2015 at 7:18pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Aug 15^th, 2015 at 6:18pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 15^th, 2015 at 1:04pm:

I believe Gandalf was seeking a moral equivalence for Muhammed murdering 800 innocent Jews in one day. He has a long list of excuses, including that there was an ongoing war and an imminent threat. There wasn't of course, but he cycles through his excuses as rapidly as possible in the hope no-one notices.

Ah. The penny's finally dropped. Yes, I see what you mean. He's been looking hither and thither for even the most diaphanous and threadbare excuse to exonerate Muhammad's guilt for his slaughtering of 800 innocent souls - The old looters' excuse of ... "But everybody else was doing it ... ".

O shallow nave! O wicked reprobate! Is there any hope for gandalf's soul? Methinks the prognosis leans towards Eternal Damnation in Hell!

Ironic that you put it that way. Muhammed was robbing people, and I have seen Muslims use the excuse that others were doing it, though to be fair I don't recall Gandalf trotting that one out. 'Just stealing it back' is the more popular excuse.

Gandalf brought this topic up in about half a dozen other threads recently, mostly in the context of Muhammed murdering those Jews. Did you not notice? He seemed to think I was afraid to discuss it, so he hijacked several threads with the topic.

Anyway, Karnal is right. We should let him have a thread about it now that he went to the trouble of starting a dedicated one. If you want to talk about the Jew slaughtering incidents, this is a good thread:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1438922302/60#60

You were afraid to discuss it FD - why else were you so determined to avoid answering a simple yes/no question?

Whats most interesting was you refusal to answer it on the basis that any comparison was invalid - as nothing could possibly be worse than executing a group of men for violating a treaty - not even deliberately slaughtering 10s of thousands of innocent men women and children.

So presumably your final answer to my original question was you can be an apologist for every conceivable massacre/atrocity in history except the execution of a few hundred traitors. Cause thats just totally beyond the pale Cheesy

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #47 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 8:51am

There I go again, saying things without actually saying them.

What I find interesting is that you derailed about half a dozen threads demanding I discuss this with you. But when I responded in a thread where you weren't changing the topic, you ignored me. Now that it is about Muhammed again, you are back into it.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #48 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 8:56am

Why gandalf keeps poking the dying embers of this Lost Cause is anyone's guess. It's a morally embarrassing itch that no amount of scratching will ever relieve.

No one who orders the killing of 800 souls can possibly have the sort of pristine moral purity of heart that would have him chosen by The Supreme Divine Almighty Being as the prophet through which to channel His Plan for Humankind.

It's time to throw in the towel on this one, gandalf. Cut your losses and move on.

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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #49 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 8:59am freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 8:51am: Now that it is about Muhammed again, you are back into it. Precisely. gandalf's all over the forum site with this monomaniacal obsession like a boarding house Christmas pudding.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #50 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 9:05am

freediver wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 8:51am:

There I go again, saying things without actually saying them.

What I find interesting is that you derailed about half a dozen threads demanding I discuss this with you. But when I responded in a thread where you weren't changing the topic, you ignored me. Now that it is about Muhammed again, you are back into it.

You responded once - not by answering yes or no to my yes/no question, but by deflecting by saying the comparison is invalid, because executing a few hundred men for treason could not possibly be comparable to deliberately mass slaughtering 10s of thousands of innocent men, women and children. To which I wholeheartedly agree - one is infinitely worse. But it doesn't mean you can't answer the question.

But feel free to have another go - do you think its possible for someone to believe the mass slaughter of 10s of thousands of innocent women and children was justified - and at the same time have a sincere belief in the western principles of human rights? (hint - its another 'yes/no' question).

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #51 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 2:31pm

If Gandalf is doing this to try and absolve muhammad it's a load of buncombe

On the one hand we have, multiple atrocities committed by the emissary of a satanic demon allah (muhammad), while inhumanely asserting the divine authority of allah (in the cruelest manner possible) over his captives.

On the other hand we have a world war, one side of which (Japan), committed unspeakably inhumane atrocities against civilians and defence personal alike.

The allies ended the world war by using an atomic bomb.

There is no comparison one is the act of a blood crazed psychopathic thief, liar, pedphile, terrorist, torturer and mass murderer. He had absolutely no right to commit the deeds he did, just as his followers today 2015, have no right emulating him with their evil degeneracy.

The other was an act of a world war. The bombings were an impersonal action to bring about the end of global hostilities

10 of the many atrocities which Japanese committed during the war.

Laha Airfield Massacre February 1942. Alexandra Hospital Massacre February 14–15, 1942. Palawan Massacre December 14, 1944. Japanese Occupation Of Nauru August 1942–September 1945. Akikaze Executions March 18, 1943. Indian Ocean Raid Massacre March 18, 1944. Sook Ching Massacre February–March 1942. I-8 March 26 and July 2, 1944. The Death Railway June 1942–October 1943. The Massacre Of ManilaFebruary–March 1945.

So for a yes and no answer for two totally different concepts, there are two different answers (one for each concept).

Yes: for the allies in ww2.

No: for muhammad and his devotees.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #52 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 2:45pm

you're kinda missing the point moses - as is most of the contributors here. The question is not about your own justifications for this or that atrocity, the question is is it possible for someone to claim any given atrocity is justified - while at the same time being a standard bearer for western liberal human rights. Or to put it another way - can you accept the sincerity of someone who claims that their support for a given atrocity is not incompatible with their belief in modern ideas of human rights.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49081 At my desk.	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #53 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 2:55pm It depends on what you are trying to justify Gandalf.
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moses Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6353	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #54 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 3:01pm It all depends on the circumstances, I believe yadda covered it pretty well a couple of posts back. There has to be consideration of the (why, when, where and how) it happened. There is no across-the-board answer. Every concept has its own answer.
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Soren

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #55 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 3:07pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 2:45pm:

you're kinda missing the point moses - as is most of the contributors here. The question is not about your own justifications for this or that atrocity, the question is is it possible for someone to claim any given atrocity is justified - while at the same time being a standard bearer for western liberal human rights. Or to put it another way - can you accept the sincerity of someone who claims that their support for a given atrocity is not incompatible with their belief in modern ideas of human rights.

You mean, is it possible to be lefty and accept that, say, Hiroshima was better than the alternative?
Because it is the Green Left Socialist Alliance that is the biggest and loudest "standard bearer for western liberal human rights".

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #56 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 3:46pm

moses wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 3:01pm:

It all depends on the circumstances, I believe yadda covered it pretty well a couple of posts back.

There has to be consideration of the (why, when, where and how) it happened.

There is no across-the-board answer.

Every concept has its own answer.

It is not about an "across the board answer" - again you are looking at it from your own point of view. The whole point here is to not look at it from your point of view. Its not even about agreeing with or even understanding someone elses point of view - but to accept that someone can be sincere and fundamentally 'moral' despite holding views you cannot understand and find repugnant.

Example: my personal view is that Hiroshima was a callous and outrageous act of mass murder that should be classified as a war crime. BUT if someone comes up to me and says "I think it was morally justified, and I also stand up for western liberal values..." - I'm not going to say they are a liar or hypocrite. Rather I will accept their word that they are genuinely sincere about this position of theirs.

I direct this particularly at you moses, because time and time again you have singularly refused to accept that such sincerity can exist - instead taking it as an indisputable fact that anyone who ascribes to the Islamic faith must necessarily also be opposed to peace and western liberal values.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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mariacostel

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #57 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 3:57pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 2:45pm:

you're kinda missing the point moses - as is most of the contributors here. The question is not about your own justifications for this or that atrocity, the question is is it possible for someone to claim any given atrocity is justified - while at the same time being a standard bearer for western liberal human rights. Or to put it another way - can you accept the sincerity of someone who claims that their support for a given atrocity is not incompatible with their belief in modern ideas of human rights.

Perhaps the question swings on your definition of 'atrocity'. Some call the bombing of Hiroshima an atrocity while others claim it saved a million lives. Does that change it from being an atrocity and simply a distasteful but ultimately life-saving event? Or does it remain an atrocity regardless albeit with a laudable outcome.

I would say however that a religion that calls for the deaths of millions and tries its best to acheive it does not qualify to be considered moral. Islam has never had the right to be called peace-loving or non-violent. Christianity might have had the Crusades, but they did move on while Islam remains largely committed to the concept of murder, destruction and ironically, the rape of women.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #58 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 3:58pm

Soren wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 3:07pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 2:45pm:

you're kinda missing the point moses - as is most of the contributors here. The question is not about your own justifications for this or that atrocity, the question is is it possible for someone to claim any given atrocity is justified - while at the same time being a standard bearer for western liberal human rights. Or to put it another way - can you accept the sincerity of someone who claims that their support for a given atrocity is not incompatible with their belief in modern ideas of human rights.

You mean, is it possible to be lefty and accept that, say, Hiroshima was better than the alternative?
Because it is the Green Left Socialist Alliance that is the biggest and loudest "standard bearer for western liberal human rights".

No the biggest and loudest "standard bearer for western liberal human rights" are the FDs of the world - who prance around waxing lyrical over faux threats to our freedoms, while at the same time being useful idiots for western imperialism (dressing it up as 'spreading freedom and democracy') - and who in the process spinelessly apologise for atrocities like Hiroshima and Iraq. cf FD's post in this thread mocking the idea that the US could possibly have any designs on Iraq that wasn't related to flowering Iraq with their gifts of freedom and democracy.

And yet, I don't begrudge him these fairy tale beliefs of his. I'm sure he genuinely believes that indiscriminately slaughtering millions and destroying entire societies is a positive step in the spreading of freeeeedom.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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mariacostel

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #59 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:01pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 3:46pm:

moses wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 3:01pm:

It all depends on the circumstances, I believe yadda covered it pretty well a couple of posts back.

There has to be consideration of the (why, when, where and how) it happened.

There is no across-the-board answer.

Every concept has its own answer.

It is not about an "across the board answer" - again you are looking at it from your own point of view. The whole point here is to not look at it from your point of view. Its not even about agreeing with or even understanding someone elses point of view - but to accept that someone can be sincere and fundamentally 'moral' despite holding views you cannot understand and find repugnant.

Example: my personal view is that Hiroshima was a callous and outrageous act of mass murder that should be classified as a war crime. BUT if someone comes up to me and says "I think it was morally justified, and I also stand up for western liberal values..." - I'm not going to say they are a liar or hypocrite. Rather I will accept their word that they are genuinely sincere about this position of theirs.

I direct this particularly at you moses, because time and time again you have singularly refused to accept that such sincerity can exist - instead taking it as an indisputable fact that anyone who ascribes to the Islamic faith must necessarily also be opposed to peace and western liberal values.

Do you support ISIS?

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