Australian Politics Forum - Can you support atrocities and human rights?

mariacostel

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #60 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:05pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 3:58pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 3:07pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 2:45pm:

you're kinda missing the point moses - as is most of the contributors here. The question is not about your own justifications for this or that atrocity, the question is is it possible for someone to claim any given atrocity is justified - while at the same time being a standard bearer for western liberal human rights. Or to put it another way - can you accept the sincerity of someone who claims that their support for a given atrocity is not incompatible with their belief in modern ideas of human rights.

You mean, is it possible to be lefty and accept that, say, Hiroshima was better than the alternative?
Because it is the Green Left Socialist Alliance that is the biggest and loudest "standard bearer for western liberal human rights".

No the biggest and loudest "standard bearer for western liberal human rights" are the FDs of the world - who prance around waxing lyrical over faux threats to our freedoms, while at the same time being useful idiots for western imperialism (dressing it up as 'spreading freedom and democracy') - and who in the process spinelessly apologise for atrocities like Hiroshima and Iraq. cf FD's post in this thread mocking the idea that the US could possibly have any designs on Iraq that wasn't related to flowering Iraq with their gifts of freedom and democracy.

And yet, I don't begrudge him these fairy tale beliefs of his. I'm sure he genuinely believes that indiscriminately slaughtering millions and destroying entire societies is a positive step in the spreading of freeeeedom.

Slaughtering millions? That's an interesting viewpoint. Complete garbage of course, but one thing I have noticed on here is the tendency to exaggerate and lie.

I support Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were unpleasant and disturbing events but they were the conclusion of a war that the allies did not start and which cost 56 million lives. The toll from the nukes barely made a ripple, but they were the last ripple and that is their justification.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #61 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:06pm

mariacostel wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 3:57pm:

Perhaps the question swings on your definition of 'atrocity'.

No it doesn't really. In fact if one person thinks Hiroshima was an atrocity but another person doesn't, then thats precisely the condition you want for my scenario: will the first person accept the sincerity of the second who says it was morally justified?

Or, since you brought it up - you believe that Islam is a religion of hate, murder, rape etc - but do you have it in you to accept the sincerity of a muslim who claims to be a standard bearer for (according to you the seemingly contradictory) modern liberal values?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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mariacostel

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #62 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:14pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:06pm:

mariacostel wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 3:57pm:

Perhaps the question swings on your definition of 'atrocity'.

No it doesn't really. In fact if one person thinks Hiroshima was an atrocity but another person doesn't, then thats precisely the condition you want for my scenario: will the first person accept the sincerity of the second who says it was morally justified?

Or, since you brought it up - you believe that Islam is a religion of hate, murder, rape etc - but do you have it in you to accept the sincerity of a muslim who claims to be a standard bearer for (according to you the seemingly contradictory) modern liberal values?

Islam worldwide is currently the face of terrorism and the face of modern day sex slavery and that is before we move on to the utter brutality and arbitary violence that Islamic countries serve up daily. I largely care nothing for people who claim Islam is a religion of peace in the face of such undeniable atrocities. Ultimately, words are meaningless in the face of actions. Would you not agree?

As for your initial question, 'atrocity' does differ in the view of many people. WW2 veterans would consider Hiroshima in largely praise-worthy term while a teenager living in wealthy safety might say otherwise. The difference in views doesnt necessarily make either right.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #63 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:20pm

mariacostel wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:05pm:

Slaughtering millions?

Yes millions. King Leopold's little jaunt in The Congo killed some 10 million people alone.

As a seasoned spineless apologist for western imperialism, FD had an interesting defense of the annihilation of Central and South American societies by the Spanish - which was to say oh well, at least they didn't introduce any new forms of suffering that these societies hadn't already suffered from previously.

But again, I don't begrudge the sincerity of FD having these fantastic views.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #64 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:22pm

mariacostel wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:14pm:

I largely care nothing for people who claim Islam is a religion of peace in the face of such undeniable atrocities. Ultimately, words are meaningless in the face of actions. Would you not agree?

And what about muslims who do act?

Because I can promise you there are a lot of peace-loving muslims who do act on their convictions.

Yadda calls it taqqiya.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #65 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:38pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:20pm:

mariacostel wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:05pm:

Slaughtering millions?

Yes millions. King Leopold's little jaunt in The Congo killed some 10 million people alone.

As a seasoned spineless apologist for western imperialism, FD had an interesting defense of the annihilation of Central and South American societies by the Spanish - which was to say oh well, at least they didn't introduce any new forms of suffering that these societies hadn't already suffered from previously.

But again, I don't begrudge the sincerity of FD having these fantastic views.

A fair bit of Leaping Nunnery there, Gandy. Iraq in the 21st century, Hiroshima, Belgian Congo in the 19th century, Latin Amrica in the 16th - all in the name post-WWII human rights conventions.

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mariacostel

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #66 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 6:03pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:22pm:

mariacostel wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:14pm:

I largely care nothing for people who claim Islam is a religion of peace in the face of such undeniable atrocities. Ultimately, words are meaningless in the face of actions. Would you not agree?

And what about muslims who do act?

Because I can promise you there are a lot of peace-loving muslims who do act on their convictions.

Yadda calls it taqqiya.

And they do what exactly? Hold protest marches opposing ISIS and Islamic terrorism? Yes, they make a few nice statements and while that is appreciated, every terrorist murder erases it entirely. And it has taken a real long time for any of them to offer up a rather watered-down apology.

It is very very little. Better than nothing, but not much.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #67 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 6:35pm

mariacostel wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 6:03pm:

And they do what exactly? Hold protest marches opposing ISIS and Islamic terrorism?

Actually, no. They hold protest marches in Sydney in a lather of high dudgeon when Far Rightwing Islamist extremists get tossed out of their presidency in Egypt.

"But nooooo ... it was the abuse of democracy that the crowd in Sydney bedecked in their biblical attire were complaining about!" wails gandalf.

"Yeah ... riiiiight" replies his vast audience of Non-Believers.

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mariacostel

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #68 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 7:03pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 6:35pm:

mariacostel wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 6:03pm:

And they do what exactly? Hold protest marches opposing ISIS and Islamic terrorism?

Actually, no. They hold protest marches in Sydney in a lather of high dudgeon when Far Rightwing Islamist extremists get tossed out of their presidency in Egypt.

"But nooooo ... it was the abuse of democracy that the crowd in Sydney bedecked in their biblical attire were complaining about!" wails gandalf.

"Yeah ... riiiiight" replies his vast audience of Non-Believers.

I saw photos of them protesting AGAINST democracy. Hard to take them seriously after that.

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Secret Wars

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #69 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 7:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:22pm:

mariacostel wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:14pm:

I largely care nothing for people who claim Islam is a religion of peace in the face of such undeniable atrocities. Ultimately, words are meaningless in the face of actions. Would you not agree?

And what about muslims who do act?

Because I can promise you there are a lot of peace-loving muslims who do act on their convictions.

Yadda calls it taqqiya.

I call it practically invisible. Of course I now expect you to trot out some examples, and I am prepared to accept they exist.

But they certainly are not as big, as spontaneous, as organised and as immediately active as the rush to offence.

Problem belonging to the overwhelming majority of Muslims who are peaceful but seemingly compliant and complacent about the minority of alaakbaing head lopping idiots which make them all seem silently complicit, or at best indifferent.

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mariacostel

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #70 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 7:41pm

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 7:19pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:22pm:

mariacostel wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 4:14pm:

I largely care nothing for people who claim Islam is a religion of peace in the face of such undeniable atrocities. Ultimately, words are meaningless in the face of actions. Would you not agree?

And what about muslims who do act?

Because I can promise you there are a lot of peace-loving muslims who do act on their convictions.

Yadda calls it taqqiya.

I call it practically invisible. Of course I now expect you to trot out some examples, and I am prepared to accept they exist.

But they certainly are not as big, as spontaneous, as organised and as immediately active as the rush to offence.

Problem belonging to the overwhelming majority of Muslims who are peaceful but seemingly compliant and complacent about the minority of alaakbaing head lopping idiots which make them all seem silently complicit, or at best indifferent.

You are right. The problem is not that there are peace-loving muslims, but rather that they need to be coaxed out of their foxholes to offer a weak, latter-day rejection of violence. It is usually weak, highly qualified and rare. And it is nothing more than words. When I see muslim communities reporting their own to the police for terrorist activities and acitvely opposing violence then perhaps we can believe it.

The powerful word you used was 'complicit'. Silence makes you complicit in crimes. We have no problem fairly assigning blame to people who know crimes against children are taking place, but is this any different?

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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights? Reply #71 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 7:56pm As a Sydney professor recently said ~ It's not easy for so-called 'Moderate' Muslims to condemn ISIS given the fact that a great deal of what they stand for is right there in the same 'holy book' from which the 'Moderates' take their own religious authority.
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mariacostel

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #72 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 7:59pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 7:56pm:

As a Sydney professor recently said ~ It's not easy for so-called 'Moderate' Muslims to condemn ISIS given the fact that a great deal of what they stand for is right there in the same 'holy book' from which the 'Moderates' take their own religious authority.

That's a convenient and totally inaccurate claim. The Koran does not support the rape and murder of women and especially children. Even when it supports killing it does not support butchery and barbarity. To condemn ISIS is exceedingly easy. The failure to do so is the question that needs some answers.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #73 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 8:14pm

mariacostel wrote on Aug 17^th, 2015 at 7:59pm:

That's a convenient and totally inaccurate claim. The Koran does not support the rape and murder of women and especially children. Even when it supports killing it does not support butchery and barbarity. To condemn ISIS is exceedingly easy. The failure to do so is the question that needs some answers.

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freediver

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #74 - Aug 17^th, 2015 at 9:27pm

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No the biggest and loudest "standard bearer for western liberal human rights" are the FDs of the world - who prance around waxing lyrical over faux threats to our freedoms

What are some of these 'faux threats' I wax about?

Quote:

while at the same time being useful idiots for western imperialism (dressing it up as 'spreading freedom and democracy')

So it is not actually spreading democracy?

Quote:

FD's post in this thread mocking the idea that the US could possibly have any designs on Iraq that wasn't related to flowering Iraq with their gifts of freedom and democracy.

Can you quote the post you refer to Gandalf? Or is this another case of me saying something without actually saying it? As I recall, I was waiting for you to back up some of the claims you were making.

Quote:

Or, since you brought it up - you believe that Islam is a religion of hate, murder, rape etc - but do you have it in you to accept the sincerity of a muslim who claims to be a standard bearer for (according to you the seemingly contradictory) modern liberal values?

Would these be the "wishy washy western liberal morals" you think we are using to attack Islam?

Gandalf, do you claim to be a standard bearer for modern liberal values?

Quote:

That's a convenient and totally inaccurate claim. The Koran does not support the rape and murder of women and especially children.

You might be right about murder, but it is kind of hard to have sex slavery and wife beating without rape, no matter how you dress it up. Under Shariah law, where sex is permitted, there is no punishment for rape, and where sex is not permitted, the punishment for rape and consensual sex is almost identical.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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