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Are parents to blame for radicalisation (Read 8004 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #105 - Oct 9th, 2015 at 10:20am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 8th, 2015 at 9:13pm:
Gandalf you said yourself that you take liberties with Islam in order to make it more palatable. That is what I mean when I refer to taking liberties becoming a pointless exercise. I am referring to what you do. Do you understand now?


No I don't understand. Why? Because you contine to dodge my simple question about how it differs from what you called for in 2008. Do you now see your advise then that muslims shouldn't be discouraged from changing specific laws (say, oooh I don't know, like execution for homosexuality???) as a "pointless exercise" in "taking liberties"?

What is the difference between what you said was a "good thing" in 2008 and what you now describe as a "pointless exercise"?

Simple question FD.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #106 - Oct 9th, 2015 at 6:27pm
 
Quote:
No I don't understand. Why? Because you contine to dodge my simple question about how it differs from what you called for in 2008.


I have also answered this directly. What was wrong with that answer?

Quote:
Do you now see your advise then that muslims shouldn't be discouraged from changing specific laws (say, oooh I don't know, like execution for homosexuality???) as a "pointless exercise" in "taking liberties"?


Did you throw in one too many negatives here?
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Karnal
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #107 - Oct 9th, 2015 at 8:07pm
 
How did you answer it directly, FD? I don’t think anyone’s seen your answer. I know I haven’t.

Do you want to say it again?
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LifeOrDeath
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #108 - Oct 9th, 2015 at 8:17pm
 
Redmond Neck wrote on Sep 5th, 2015 at 4:56pm:
I heard an interesting interview with a muslim who is studying why young muslims are radicalised. It was on ABC RN Saturday Extra this morning. (Still looking for a poscast)

He reckoned it starts in the family, where the children are really discouraged from mixing with christians and other religions.

A big fear is marrying into other religions so the children are discouraged from mixing

The children grow up with a sense of not belonging in the local society

They tend to the find like minded individuals in their mosques and this can lead to looking for a purpose in life (ISIS)

What are your thoughts?


Certainly the parents as they cannot refute the qu'ran. The core of islams problem lies with the qu'ran that was solely written for one purpose to control the population and motivate them to take over the rest of the world. Its so outdated and obvious its laughable.. Parents cannot simply refute its commands to their children to commit these atrocities. For them to do so they would be calling mohammed and allah liars which of course they are only myths. Thats why we have nutjobs running around everywhere trying to explain it away of course which they obviously fail miserable and just look fools.

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There is no evidence of the existence of a muslim,mohammed,or quran until 60 years  after mohammed was supposed to have died. Grin Grin Grin Posting on islam just encourages them and is a waste of time.
 
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #109 - Oct 9th, 2015 at 8:30pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 8th, 2015 at 11:36pm:
Gandalf, a quick question if I may :

Who do YOU personally think is behind this radicalisation process?

Apologies if you've already answered this in here.



Oi!

Stop ignoring me Mr Gandalf  Angry
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Yadda
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #110 - Oct 9th, 2015 at 9:37pm
 
LifeOrDeath wrote on Oct 9th, 2015 at 8:17pm:
Redmond Neck wrote on Sep 5th, 2015 at 4:56pm:
I heard an interesting interview with a muslim who is studying why young muslims are radicalised. It was on ABC RN Saturday Extra this morning. (Still looking for a poscast)

He reckoned it starts in the family, where the children are really discouraged from mixing with christians and other religions.

A big fear is marrying into other religions so the children are discouraged from mixing

The children grow up with a sense of not belonging in the local society

They tend to the find like minded individuals in their mosques and this can lead to looking for a purpose in life (ISIS)

What are your thoughts?


Certainly the parents as they cannot refute the qu'ran.

The core of islams problem lies with the qu'ran that was solely written for one purpose to control the population and motivate them to take over the rest of the world.

Its so outdated and obvious its laughable..


Parents cannot simply refute its commands to their children to commit these atrocities.

For them to do so they would be calling mohammed and allah liars which of course they are only myths.






Moslem parents [in a nation like Australia] cannot simply refute the Koran's commands, i.e. the Koran's commands which encourage moslems [i.e. and to teach their children] to commit religious violence against 'disbelievers'.

Why not ?

If they did; The moslem parents would lay themselves open to charges of religious apostasy [from their own community] and therefore make themselves targets of moslem religious violence.

as per the command of their religion

--------- >

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
- DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260





And non-moslems cannot be permitted to simply [i.e. 'openly'] refute the Koran's commands, which encourages moslems [i.e. and to teach their children] to commit religious violence against 'disbelievers'.

Why not ?

Because that would be an act of religious intolerance, by a 'racist'.          < ------ I am not kidding!!     That is how both left liberals and moslems, often portray any criticism of the 'peaceful religion' of ISLAM.      e.g. In just that last day or two, no lesser person that Malcolm Turnbull has come very close to characterising opponents of ISLAM in Australia, in this way.




AND YET;
In places [nations] where the Koran is held in high regard, AND, where the Koran is protected by local law,      ....to refute the Koran's commands [i.e. to insult Allah's perfect religion] often results in the summary execution of the individual simply accused of that crime, at the hands of an enraged mob.




.




LifeOrDeath wrote on Oct 9th, 2015 at 8:17pm:

Thats why we have nutjobs running around everywhere trying to explain it away of course which they obviously fail miserable and just look fools.



I don't blame the 'nutjobs' for the appearance of religious violence and the threat of religious violence, on the streets our cities and suburbs in Australia.

I blame people like
Malcolm Turnbull
.





In actual fact;    'radicalisation' = = becoming a [devout] moslem.


Yadda said.....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1441436180/31#31
Quote:

Are parents to blame for radicalisation ?



QUESTION;
Why would anyone doubt that moslems [and the local moslem community] are those who are primarily responsible, for the 'radicalisation' of all local moslems, and particularly the 'radicalisation' of their own moslem children ?

Duh.


n.b.
In actual fact;    'radicalisation' = = becoming a [devout] moslem.


Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #111 - Oct 10th, 2015 at 11:07am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 9th, 2015 at 6:27pm:
I have also answered this directly. What was wrong with that answer?


Whats wrong with it is that it doesn't exist.

Have another go. Maybe if I phrase it slightly differently:

When I call on muslims to abandon the specific law to execute gays, is that not exactly what you called on muslims to do in 2008? Why are you now calling it a "pointless exercise"?

Supplementary question if I may, which you also repeatedly dodged: do you still agree with what you said in the 2008 quote? Thats a simple yes or no.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #112 - Oct 10th, 2015 at 1:12pm
 
I don't consider Islam to be as flexible as I did then.

Previously you were calling on Muslims to reinterpret that command. You have now realised that is a pointless exercise and have thus abandoned it. Like I already said, I support and encourage this.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #113 - Oct 10th, 2015 at 2:38pm
 
No fd i never called on muslims to "reinterpret" that command. My position on the hadith has been the same as its ever been: it shouldnt be part of islamic law.  Is that what you thought i backtracked on? Sorry for your self-inflicted confusion.

Anyway you sort of made a token gesture to finally address my question, but it doesn't really get to the point of it. You seem to be hell bent on making a distinction between a sort of healthy evolution of the specifics of islamic law and what you now term as the "pointless exercise" of "abandoning" the laws of the religion. Im curious as to why you wouldn't see something like this - ie a call to reject this basis of the ruling on executing gays comitting gay acts - as an admirable attempt at reformation of religious law that should be commended, as opposed to treating it with the disdain and cynisism you are treating it with - to the extent that it is simply dismissed as a "pointless exercise".
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #114 - Oct 10th, 2015 at 3:05pm
 
Quote:
No fd i never called on muslims to "reinterpret" that command.


Right. You tried to reinterpret it yourself.

Quote:
Anyway you sort of made a token gesture to finally address my question, but it doesn't really get to the point of it. You seem to be hell bent on making a distinction


Is this the same distinction you accuse me of avoiding?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #115 - Oct 10th, 2015 at 3:47pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 10th, 2015 at 3:05pm:
Is this the same distinction you accuse me of avoiding?


You're not avoiding the inferring of a distinction, but you are avoiding an explanation of it.

It needs explaining.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10th, 2015 at 2:38pm:
Im curious as to why you wouldn't see something like this - ie a call to reject this basis of the ruling on executing gays comitting gay acts - as an admirable attempt at reformation of religious law that should be commended, as opposed to treating it with the disdain and cynisism you are treating it with - to the extent that it is simply dismissed as a "pointless exercise".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Karnal
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #116 - Oct 10th, 2015 at 4:40pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10th, 2015 at 3:47pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 10th, 2015 at 3:05pm:
Is this the same distinction you accuse me of avoiding?


You're not avoiding the inferring of a distinction, but you are avoiding an explanation of it.

It needs explaining.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10th, 2015 at 2:38pm:
Im curious as to why you wouldn't see something like this - ie a call to reject this basis of the ruling on executing gays comitting gay acts - as an admirable attempt at reformation of religious law that should be commended, as opposed to treating it with the disdain and cynisism you are treating it with - to the extent that it is simply dismissed as a "pointless exercise".



It certainly does need explaining. Which of the two FDs is right?

It would be great if 2008 & 2015 FD could sort this out.
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« Last Edit: Oct 10th, 2015 at 4:45pm by Karnal »  
 
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #117 - Oct 10th, 2015 at 4:59pm
 
Actually 2015 FD still hasn't confirmed whether or not he agrees with 2008 FD. All he has said is that in this particular example - rejecting the basis of the law to kill gays for committing gay acts - is something that "looks pointless" because muslims are "consciously taking liberties with their religion". But he has yet to confirm whether or not he still agrees with the principle that muslims should be encouraged to "change the specifics of their laws" and that this represents a "good thing".

Now I don't know whether his comments on the gay example are a result of him no longer believing the sentiment he expressed in 2008, or if he somehow thinks that his 2008 sentiment doesn't apply to the gay example. Either way he hasn't explained despite numerous requests.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Karnal
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #118 - Oct 10th, 2015 at 5:01pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10th, 2015 at 2:38pm:
Im curious as to why you wouldn't see something like this - ie a call to reject this basis of the ruling on executing gays comitting gay acts - as an admirable attempt at reformation of religious law that should be commended, as opposed to treating it with the disdain and cynisism you are treating it with - to the extent that it is simply dismissed as a "pointless exercise".


I'm curious too. FD credits Christianity and the British for ending slavery around the world. There's no point telling FD British Christians started the British Empire and the slave trade used to work it, he'll just celebrate the fact that they finally woke up to themselves and called it off.

Your Muslim, of course, stopped a lot of things at various points in history - the Moors, the Persians, the Ottomans. Beheading the giver and the taker is just one. Meanwhile, in pre-modern Europe, they were putting the giver and the taker on those anal dilation torture machines Bobbie loves to show us.

But FD is cunning. It all comes down to Aisha, that Jew and his gold and the 600, 800, 1000 Jews killed in a day. Islam hasn't changed since.

That's the 2015 FD, I mean. The 2008 FD had quite a different take. I wonder where he went?
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Karnal
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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #119 - Oct 10th, 2015 at 5:04pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10th, 2015 at 4:59pm:
Either way he hasn't explained despite numerous requests.


That's the Muselman for you. Cunning.

Do you think 2015 FD is censoring himself?
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