Australian Politics Forum - Are parents to blame for radicalisation

Soren

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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #120 - Oct 10^th, 2015 at 5:38pm

Non-Muslims are responsible for every negative aspect of Muslims' lives.
Radical Muslims? It's the police, it's racism, it's Amerikkka, It's the Zionist entity, it's [your kuffar hate figure here]

Anyone who says Muslims are responsible for jihad, sharia, ISIS, Al Qaeda, terrorist acts and Muslim separatism is obviously an Islamophobe, a xenophobe and tereby is wholly responsible for 15 year old Mohammeds creeping up behind Chinese accountants in Australia and shooting them dead.

No Muslim parent, academic, imam, shikh, cuz, sista, bruvva can ever be responsible.

It's all the Islamophobes' fault. They MAKE 15 year old Mohammeds do such things.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96171 Gender:	Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation Reply #121 - Oct 10^th, 2015 at 5:50pm That's strange, old chap. The Muselman is responsible for every negative aspect of your life too, no? You two should be making cheese together.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49212 At my desk.	Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation Reply #122 - Oct 10^th, 2015 at 6:24pm Quote: You're not avoiding the inferring of a distinction, but you are avoiding an explanation of it. It needs explaining. Obviously.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96171 Gender:	Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation Reply #123 - Oct 10^th, 2015 at 6:40pm freediver wrote on Oct 10^th, 2015 at 6:24pm: Quote: You're not avoiding the inferring of a distinction, but you are avoiding an explanation of it. It needs explaining. Obviously. Indeed.
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freediver

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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #124 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 3:03pm

I think that what has changed more than my impression of the flexibility of Islam, is the inescapable character of Muhammed himself.

Christianity is more flexible in a political sense, because unlike Islam it was never intended as a political system. Muhammed on the other hand used Islam to build his empire. If you see this as a downside to Christianity (eg, it allows people to get all 'old testament') then it is redeemed by the character of Jesus - the common and inescapable themes of forgiveness, turning the other cheek etc. Any ideology can be twisted and reinterpreted, but the further you push it, the more likely it is to snap back to the original settings.

As you try to make Islam more palatable, you take it further from the intention of Muhammed and from the nature of Muhammed. Islam will always drag it's followers back. This was not imposed on Muhammed by circumstance, rather he imposed it on the world, just as his more conservative followers are doing today.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation Reply #125 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 3:30pm Karnal wrote on Oct 10^th, 2015 at 5:50pm: That's strange, old chap. The Muselman is responsible for every negative aspect of your life too, no? No.
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Soren

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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #126 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 3:33pm

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 3:03pm:

I think that what has changed more than my impression of the flexibility of Islam, is the inescapable character of Muhammed himself.

Christianity is more flexible in a political sense, because unlike Islam it was never intended as a political system. Muhammed on the other hand used Islam to build his empire. If you see this as a downside to Christianity (eg, it allows people to get all 'old testament') then it is redeemed by the character of Jesus - the common and inescapable themes of forgiveness, turning the other cheek etc. Any ideology can be twisted and reinterpreted, but the further you push it, the more likely it is to snap back to the original settings.

As you try to make Islam more palatable, you take it further from the intention of Muhammed and from the nature of Muhammed. Islam will always drag it's followers back. This was not imposed on Muhammed by circumstance, rather he imposed it on the world, just as his more conservative followers are doing today.

This is a good characterisation of the differences.
Christianity is transformative, a religion that requires you to change within. Islam is performative, it requires you to act in a certain way, prescribing minute codes of behaviour without much care about what is inside you.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #127 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 4:20pm

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 3:03pm:

I think that what has changed more than my impression of the flexibility of Islam, is the inescapable character of Muhammed himself.

Christianity is more flexible in a political sense, because unlike Islam it was never intended as a political system. Muhammed on the other hand used Islam to build his empire. If you see this as a downside to Christianity (eg, it allows people to get all 'old testament') then it is redeemed by the character of Jesus - the common and inescapable themes of forgiveness, turning the other cheek etc. Any ideology can be twisted and reinterpreted, but the further you push it, the more likely it is to snap back to the original settings.

As you try to make Islam more palatable, you take it further from the intention of Muhammed and from the nature of Muhammed. Islam will always drag it's followers back. This was not imposed on Muhammed by circumstance, rather he imposed it on the world, just as his more conservative followers are doing today.

Sounds like a copout to me. Grasping for an excuse to stubbornly maintain a bigoted anti-Islamic stance.

Even Ayaan Hirsi Ali believes Islam can and should be reformed - and just like you, she buys into the whole "Muhammad the warmonger" schtick.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #128 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 4:21pm

Soren wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 3:33pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 3:03pm:

I think that what has changed more than my impression of the flexibility of Islam, is the inescapable character of Muhammed himself.

Christianity is more flexible in a political sense, because unlike Islam it was never intended as a political system. Muhammed on the other hand used Islam to build his empire. If you see this as a downside to Christianity (eg, it allows people to get all 'old testament') then it is redeemed by the character of Jesus - the common and inescapable themes of forgiveness, turning the other cheek etc. Any ideology can be twisted and reinterpreted, but the further you push it, the more likely it is to snap back to the original settings.

As you try to make Islam more palatable, you take it further from the intention of Muhammed and from the nature of Muhammed. Islam will always drag it's followers back. This was not imposed on Muhammed by circumstance, rather he imposed it on the world, just as his more conservative followers are doing today.

This is a good characterisation of the differences.
Christianity is transformative, a religion that requires you to change within. Islam is performative, it requires you to act in a certain way, prescribing minute codes of behaviour without much care about what is inside you.

Islam is entirely about inner transformation. You know nothing about the religion.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #129 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 4:28pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 4:20pm:

Even Ayaan Hirsi Ali believes Islam can and should be reformed -

Provided that the five most fundamental changes in Islamic belief and practice she calls for are implemented:

• Renunciation of Muhammad’s semi-divine and infallible status along with the literalist reading of the Koran, particularly those parts that were attributed to Muhammad’s sojourn in Medina, where he started resorting to violence against unbelievers;

• A shift from investment in an imagined life after death to concentration on life in the actual world, before death;

• Abandonment of sharia law in favour of civil law;

• Abandonment of the practice of “commanding right and forbidding wrong” which empowers families, communities or vigilante gangs to harass others in the name of strict religious codes;

• The radical revision of teachings about jihad, to remove the calls for Islam to be spread by force against infidels.

In other words, Islam is reformable as long as Mohammed's status is renounced together with the toxic parts of the Koran, sharia and jihad are abandoned in favour of civilisation and reason and the large claims Islam and Muslims amake for themselves (“commanding right and forbidding wrong”) are ditched.

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Soren

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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #130 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 4:32pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 4:21pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 3:33pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 3:03pm:

I think that what has changed more than my impression of the flexibility of Islam, is the inescapable character of Muhammed himself.

Christianity is more flexible in a political sense, because unlike Islam it was never intended as a political system. Muhammed on the other hand used Islam to build his empire. If you see this as a downside to Christianity (eg, it allows people to get all 'old testament') then it is redeemed by the character of Jesus - the common and inescapable themes of forgiveness, turning the other cheek etc. Any ideology can be twisted and reinterpreted, but the further you push it, the more likely it is to snap back to the original settings.

As you try to make Islam more palatable, you take it further from the intention of Muhammed and from the nature of Muhammed. Islam will always drag it's followers back. This was not imposed on Muhammed by circumstance, rather he imposed it on the world, just as his more conservative followers are doing today.

This is a good characterisation of the differences.
Christianity is transformative, a religion that requires you to change within. Islam is performative, it requires you to act in a certain way, prescribing minute codes of behaviour without much care about what is inside you.

Islam is entirely about inner transformation. You know nothing about the religion.

No, it's not. You utter the abracadabra or whatever it is called and you are in, you are a Muslim. Performance before your coreligionists.

Look at all the Muslim advise manuals - all about which foot to put first, what ritual to perform when looked at by a dog or a woman, how often to wash after the congress of the antelope.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96171 Gender:	Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation Reply #131 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 5:13pm I say, old boy, are you a baptised Lutheran, or did you recite the proclamation? Every day, in every way, things are getting better and better.
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #132 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 5:15pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 4:21pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 3:33pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 3:03pm:

I think that what has changed more than my impression of the flexibility of Islam, is the inescapable character of Muhammed himself.

Christianity is more flexible in a political sense, because unlike Islam it was never intended as a political system. Muhammed on the other hand used Islam to build his empire. If you see this as a downside to Christianity (eg, it allows people to get all 'old testament') then it is redeemed by the character of Jesus - the common and inescapable themes of forgiveness, turning the other cheek etc. Any ideology can be twisted and reinterpreted, but the further you push it, the more likely it is to snap back to the original settings.

As you try to make Islam more palatable, you take it further from the intention of Muhammed and from the nature of Muhammed. Islam will always drag it's followers back. This was not imposed on Muhammed by circumstance, rather he imposed it on the world, just as his more conservative followers are doing today.

This is a good characterisation of the differences.
Christianity is transformative, a religion that requires you to change within. Islam is performative, it requires you to act in a certain way, prescribing minute codes of behaviour without much care about what is inside you.

Islam is entirely about inner transformation. You know nothing about the religion.

That's not quite true.

What you should have said, is:

"You know nothing".

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Soren

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Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation
Reply #133 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 5:53pm

Karnal wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 5:13pm:

I say, old boy, are you a baptised Lutheran, or did you recite the proclamation?

Every day, in every way, things are getting better and better.

http://www.wikihow.com/Become-Catholic

http://www.wikihow.com/Become-Lutheran

Becoming a Muslim is a simple and easy process. All that a person has to do is to say a sentence called the Testimony of Faith (Shahada), which is pronounced as:

I testify “La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammad rasoolu Allah.”

These Arabic words mean, “There is no true god (deity) but God (Allah), and Muhammad is the Messenger (Prophet) of God.” Once a person says the Testimony of Faith (Shahada) with conviction and understanding its meaning, then he/she has become a Muslim.

Drive-by conversion, what?

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96171 Gender:	Re: Are parents to blame for radicalisation Reply #134 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 6:52pm Ah. You won’t say. That’s your Lutheran for you. Shifty. Evasive. Rat-cunning. Gott mit uns, nein?
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